Talk:Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials

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This is the talk page for discussing the page, Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials.

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Rename[edit]

Why not just "Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Material"? --XBrain130™エックスブレーン130」 08:46, February 4, 2017 (UTC)

Well, would that include monsters such as the Majestic monsters and Power Tool Dragon then? If you want "Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Material", you could create that and make this a sub-category to it. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 13:54, February 4, 2017 (UTC))
For the first question, I think yes.
For the second, I think we should just rename this one, since a Synchro that requires multiple other Synchros is almost always an Accel Synchro, making it redundant imo. --XBrain130™エックスブレーン130」 14:10, February 4, 2017 (UTC)
Well, I can think of at least 8 Synchro Monsters that require other Synchro Monsters as Synchro Material but are not "Accel Synchro Monsters" (I'm using the term here to mean any Synchro Monster that needs at least 1 Tuner Synchro Monster and at least 1 non-Tuner Synchro Monster as Materials, but are not named as such in the 5D's anime, like Crystron Phoenix), and only need at minimum 1 Synchro Monster as a Material. I think we can make "Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Material" for those 8 Synchro Monsters, but leave this one as a sub-category for all "Accel Synchro Monsters" for the sake of linking from the Accel Synchro Monster page. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 19:14, February 4, 2017 (UTC))
I'm with XBrain. Lucafriz, I think you're just complicating it.
Just one modification on XBrain's suggestion: "Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials". Becasita Pendulum (talkcontribs) 19:28, February 4, 2017 (UTC)
Really, the only categories I think are necessary are: "Requires (a?) Tuner Synchro Monster as Synchro Material" and "Requires (a?) non-Tuner Synchro Monster as Synchro Material". The lists for each of these categories are very small, and therefore don't justify the existence of this page that merges the 2.
If I had a Deck that was capable of churning out Synchro Monsters with a Tuner and/or Synchro Tuner on the field, I'd be more interested in seeing what Synchro Monsters specifically require non-Tuner Synchro Monsters. If I really wanted to see monsters that needed a Synchro Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters, the list is small enough that they could be found very easily anyway. --UltimateKuriboh (talkcontribs) 19:50, February 4, 2017 (UTC)
Rewording what I said earlier. We need 2 categories to be used on the card pages:
Requires a Tuner Synchro Monster as Synchro Material
Requires a non-Tuner Synchro Monster as Synchro Material
Those would be put on all the appropriate card pages. Then, we rename this category "Requires Synchro Monsters as Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Materials". The contents of this list would be ① and ②.
We have another new 2 categories as well: "Requires a Synchro Monster as Synchro Material, but only as a non-Tuner" (relevant because of "Goyo King" and "Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon") and "Requires a Synchro Monster as Synchro Material, but only as a Tuner" (this category's creation may be delayed, because I don't think we have any Synchro Monsters that fit that category). The contents of the first list would be ②, excluding any results that fall under ①. --UltimateKuriboh (talkcontribs) 00:08, February 5, 2017 (UTC)
I think separating into those two properties is excessive and overkill. A Synchro that requires another Synchro is notable from both a gameplay point of view and as a curiosity. Separating them like that is only practical for a limited set of circustances which probably wouldn't be the reason people search those Synchros. They are not too many to be all checked for the exact Materials in more than some minutes anyway, so I see no practical advantage in splitting them that way.--XBrain130™エックスブレーン130」 02:47, February 5, 2017 (UTC)
When you have a Deck that relies on Synchro Summons for its power plays, but does not have enough resources to invest in a Synchro Tuner, that difference becomes more important. "D/D" and "Shiranui" are great examples of this, as they can readily bring out "Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon", yet aren't strong enough on their own to invest in Synchro Tuners for bigger plays. So, the interested player wouldn't want to comb through a list of Synchro Monsters that mostly lists "1 Synchro Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner Synchro Monsters" in order to find the viable "Goyo King" and CWSD. --UltimateKuriboh (talkcontribs) 02:55, February 5, 2017 (UTC)
I have to agree with XBrain here, I don't think a "Requires a Tuner Synchro Monster as Synchro Material" category is necessary at this point unless there's a Synchro Monster that requires a Tuner Synchro Monster as a Synchro Material, while at the same time doesn't require non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as materials. All such monsters that would go into this proposed category have "Accel Syncro" material requirements, which would lead to complete overlap with a "Requires Synchro Monsters as Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Materials" category (which is a category you're proposing for monsters with "Accel Synchro" material conditions). I think just having this category, for all Synchro Monsters that require at least 1 Synchro Monster as Material, is sufficient. Perhaps we can talk about more specific categories, like what you are proposing, when we get more Synchro Monsters with the described traits. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 03:14, February 5, 2017 (UTC))
However, I do think that there might be some use for a "Requires a Synchro Monster as Synchro Material, but only as a non-Tuner" category, for reasons that UltimateKuriboh mentioned, namely, to find monsters like Goyo King and Crystal Wing, without having to comb through "Accel Synchros", but I think we should reword that proposed name to be less clunky. If there is a need for a category for monsters that need a Tuner Synchro and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as materials, we could have a "Requires Synchro Monsters as Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Materials" category, and link to it from the Accel Synchro Monster page (this was the reason I rreat4ed the initial category in the first place). If you want to go thrat route, I propose creating a new category and keeping this one intact as a master category for all Synchros that need at least 1 Synchro Monster as a Material (making the other proposed categories into sub-categories of this one). (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 03:27, February 5, 2017 (UTC))

There is a Synchro that needs a Synchro Tuner but any Non-Tuner. Battlewasp - Hama the Conquering Bow. it's anime only at the moment, but who know's when that will change, especially with a new collectors pack around the corner. I'd Rather keep the lists seperate. If someone is searching for a list of such synchros, they are probably looking more for one type than the other. Similar as they are, I think they are distinct enough to warrant separate listings. Dread (talkcontribs) 03:34, February 5, 2017 (UTC)


Wow, I actually forgot about that one, lol. I'm more concerned about there not being enough such Synchros though, to justify a separate category, as such a category would invariably overlap with one that is designed to list all monsters with "Accel Synchro" materials. Not to mention that given the only example of a Synchro Monster that needs a Tuner Synchro but at the same time, doesn't require non-Tuner Synchro Monsters is anime-only, what are the chances people will be looking for something like that? Typically, as UltimateKuriboh mentioned, you would tend to search for such monsters because you want to know what options your deck has, but if all such monsters IRL are also "Accel Synchro" monsters, your better off searching in a category for "Accel Synchro" monsters rather than a "Requires a Tuner Synchro Monster as Synchro Material" category. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 03:37, February 5, 2017 (UTC))
While true, there is a trend of Synchros requiring a Synchro Non-tuner and a generic tuner (I guess ARC V didn't want to do full Accel Synchro, never made a big deal about Synchro tuners like Rank Up did when it debuted in ARC V)
Even if the lists look redundant, most searches will be for one over the other, so half of it will be irrelevant nearly 100% of the time.
Dread (talkcontribs) 03:46, February 5, 2017 (UTC)
The way I approach things when creating a new category is to wait until there's at least 2 cards that'll fit in the new category without totally overlapping with another related category (unless that other related category is a parent category). That way, I know there's at least some sort of trend for cards with that particular trait the category is made to detail. I make exceptions if the category is something like Cannot be Special Summoned from the Extra Deck or Allows multiple Pendulum Summons, where there is likely a good strategic interest for players in knowing about cards with those traits. I'd wait a bit and see if there are more monsters like Hama before making the category you're proposing, but that's my opinion. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 03:54, February 5, 2017 (UTC))
True, while its not a bad idea to do so in advance, its also not something we can't quickly take care of when it comes up, Synchro Tuner + Generic Non-tuner is definitely an oddball combination and its inverse is clearly more popular. but it happened once, it can happen again (unless the eventual IRL Hama drops that). I still agree with UltimateKuribohs proposal
Dread (talkcontribs) 04:32, February 5, 2017 (UTC)
I think I figured a possible solution to this issue. Keep this category for all Accel Synchro Monsters and any monsters with the same Materials (1 Tuner Synchro Monster and 1 or more non-Tuner Synchro Monsters), then make another category, "Requires Synchro Monsters as non-Tuner Synchro Materials", for any Synchro Monsters that require at least 1 Synchro Monster as a non-Tuner Synchro Material. If there ever are any Synchro Monsters that need Tuner Synchro Monsters as Tuner Synchro Materials, but do not need Synchro Monsters as non-Tuner Synchro Materials, we could make the category "Requires Synchro Monsters as non-Tuner Synchro Materials" for those monsters. It might be similar to UltimateKuriboh's idea, but I think the naming scheme I suggested is more in-line with the names that have been used on categories to sort monsters by the type of Materials they require. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 03:41, March 2, 2017 (UTC))
I think the best would be to probably go with UltiK's approach. It diverges a bit from my initial suggestion, but after re-thinking it, it might be the best, since it clearly distinguishes all cases, it's more organized and it also will work in the long term.
That means, dividing the searches as much as possible. Let's see:
  1. "Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" - Doesn't matter for which part; it just needs to require a Synchro Monster.
    1. "Requires Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" - The Tuner needs to be a Synchro Monster, regardless of the other material.
    2. "Requires non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" - The non-Tuner needs to be a Synchro.
    3. "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" - Both the Tuner and the non-Tuner need to be Synchro Monsters.
We could even distinguish which Synchro Monsters require a Tuner Synchro, but do not require a Synchro Monster as the other material and vice-versa. In that case, perhaps:
  1. "Requires Synchro Monsters only as Tuner Synchro Materials" - The Tuner needs to be a Synchro Monster; the non-Tuner cannot be a Synchro.
  1. "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials" - The non-Tuner needs to be a Synchro Monster; the Tuner cannot be a Synchro.
A big mess, I guess. But would cover everything. Becasita Pendulum (talkcontribs) 19:49, March 2, 2017 (UTC)
Having just made a whole bunch of categories to sort monsters by their material requirements, my thoughts were that it could be something along the lines of how I named those categories. For instance, Does not require specific Synchro Materials are for Synchro Monsters with completely generic materials, Does not require specific Tuner Synchro Materials is for Synchro Monsters with some sort of specific requirement for the Tuner but have generic non-Tuner materials, and Does not require specific non-Tuner Synchro Materials is for Synchro Monsters with some sort of specific requirement for the non-Tuner materials, but have no restrictions on what Tuner is used. My thoughts are that where Synchros with some sort of generic component to their materials is concerned, those three categories covered that aspect adequately. That said, the system does seem to fall apart for Synchro Monsters with specific requirements for both the Tuer and non-Tuner materials. For instance, I did make categories like Requires archetype specific Tuner Synchro Materials and Requires archetype specific non-Tuner Synchro Materials, and a monster like Mecha Phantom Beast Jaculuslan would go in both of those categories. If we made categories for both Synchros that required Tuner Synchro Monsters and those that required Synchro Monsters as non-Tuner materials, I suppose any "Accel Synchro Monsters" would go in both of them. The issue is how to avoid that scenario. I suppose what you have proposed is likely the best option, though somewhat inelegant in execution. Do you wish to proceed with the idea that you proposed in that case? (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 00:03, March 3, 2017 (UTC))
No, let's not proceed. Several people commented here. We shouldn't precipitate and be hasty. I'll have to read your text again, several times. Let's see if other people want to comment too. Becasita Pendulum (talkcontribs) 02:39, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
That's fine. The problem here, of course, is the fact that there are two types of Synchro Materials (Tuners and non-Tuners), which is the source of this issue. You won't have that with any other type of Extra Deck monster, lol. Anyway, regarding your proposal, I agree with the idea of having categories such as "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials", "Requires Synchro Monsters only as Tuner Synchro Materials", and "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials", but I can't help but think that "Requires Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" and "Requires non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" are redundant. All Synchro Monsters that requires non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as materials would either go under "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" or "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials", so it seems like "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials" would contain all monsters in the aforementioned two categories. While I admit that it may be useful for some classifying purposes, it seems like it's adding another layer of complexity, and I'm not sure how necessary that layer is to begin with. If you want to have categories such as "Requires Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" and "Requires non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials", then it seems like "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" would be a sub-category for both of those categories. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 06:01, March 3, 2017 (UTC))
Not all of the search categories would be used to tag card articles. "Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" would be generated by combining the others, for instance; you wouldn't have to tag a card with this one. Likewise, "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" would be generated by asking for Accel Synchros and such; you wouldn't have to tag articles with this. It would exist just to facilitate searching. They'd work more like parent categories, given they are more embracing.
In any case, I still need to think about this better. Becasita Pendulum (talkcontribs) 11:37, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
I do agree that not all the categories be needed to tag articles, though "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" would probably need to be used to tag articles, given that not all monsters with that requirement are "Accel Synchro Monsters" per se, such as Crystron Phoenix and Stardust Sifr Divine Dragon. Apparently, Accel Synchro is a particular designation used only in the 5D's anime, and only monsters that appeared in the anime with those particular material requirement truly count as Accel Synchros. I've run into issues trying to tag this particular category with Accel Synchro Monster, as for some reason, it makes TCG/OCG card articles show up in the anime cards section of this category. I attribute it to the fact that "Accel Synchro" is an actual designation that shows up in the Type/Ability line of the cards in the anime but not the TCG/OCG, which seems to cause this listing issue. Therefore, I think all articles that fall under "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" need to be personally tagged with the category, including any article in the "Accel Synchro Monster" category, to avoid this listing issue. Apart from that, I do agree that you could edit this category to simply list members of all the others and that "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials" could be generated by listing all cards in the categories "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" and "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials". (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 16:23, March 3, 2017 (UTC))
I wasn't particularly saying to tag them exclusively with Accel Synchros. In any case, we don't even need to use it; for the "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials", we just need to generate the query by simply asking for cards that have both "Requires Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" and "Requires non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials". Becasita Pendulum (talkcontribs) 20:54, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
What I was saying is to tag all "Accel Synchro Monsters" and any Synchro Monsters with the same material requirements as them with the "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" category because of the prior mentioned listing issue. We could do what you suggested and structure the category to include all monsters tagged with both the "Requires Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" and "Requires Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" categories, but that would entail tagging all "Accel Synchro Monsters" and the Synchro Monsters with the same material requirements, with both of those categories. I find that a little clunky when they could all simply be tagged with one category, "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials", rather than the two you seem to be suggesting. If I'm getting your opnions wrong, do let me know. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 22:42, March 3, 2017 (UTC))
That would probably be the best:
Use "Requires Synchro Monsters only as Tuner Synchro Materials", "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials" and "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" to tag the cards. These three cover all cases (the latter being used on those particular Synchros, like Accel Synchro and the like (though maybe this could be avoided; I need to take some time to analyze the problem you mentioned and this conversation calmly), while the others cover the rest). The other search categories would have their info generated from combining these three. Becasita Pendulum (talkcontribs) 00:37, March 4, 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing, so I guess we'll likely have to see if anyone else is agreeable with the idea. As for the listing problem, you can see it on this very category if you go and edit it, since trying to list Accel Synchro Monsters here is causing TCG/OCG articles to show up in the section meant to list anime cards. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 03:02, March 4, 2017 (UTC))
I see that you have edited the category somewhat to try and fix the issue, though as far I can see, none of the anime articles for monsters in the "Accel Synchro Monster" category are showing up in this category's section for listing anime articles. I tried what you did in the past, admittedly, and got the same outcome as well. Maybe it's a glitch with the wiki itself? Then again, it could be, as I mentioned, the fact that "Accel Synchro" is categorized differently on TCG/OCG articles and anime ones, being a "Misc" tag on the former and a designation on the card Type/Ability line on the latter. The only way I can think of to definitively solve this problem would be to physically tag all the Accel Synchro Monster anime articles with "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials" to make them show up in the category when it is made and avoid this particular listing issue. (Lucafriz (talkcontribs) 05:02, March 4, 2017 (UTC))
────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────So, trying to sum this up:
  1. "Requires Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials"
  2. "Requires Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials"
  3. "Requires non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials"
  4. "Requires both Tuner and non-Tuner Synchro Monsters as Synchro Materials"
  5. "Requires Synchro Monsters only as Tuner Synchro Materials"
  6. "Requires Synchro Monsters only as non-Tuner Synchro Materials"
4, 5 and 6 should be used to tag articles. The others would be generated from those three, just to facilitate navigation.
Any opinions? Any other suggestions? Becasita Pendulum (talkcontribs) 21:52, March 5, 2017 (UTC)