Forum:Lists on tip pages

Okay, I don't know when this started, but this needs to stop.

Lists are a fantastic addition to Tips pages, because it lets a player see all viable cards in one section. However, lately I've been seeing it formatted with a big LIST on top, and then "LIST OF MONSTERS YOU CAN SUMMON", and so forth. That looks ridiculously ugly and unprofessional. It should just be listed under tips, at the very end.

Can we have some kind of set standard so that this doesn't keep happening and I don't have to keep cleaning it up? The Pope 07:00, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

The overall format is supposed to be:

{{Navigation}}

* advancedFormatTipsHere.

== Traditional Format ==

* traditionalFormatTipsHere.

== Video games ==

* videoGamesOnlyTipsHere.

== List ==

* The following monsters can be Special Summoned by the effect of this card:
<dl><dd>{{#ask: smwParametersHere |?Japanese Name |?Level |?Attribute |?Type |?Card Type |?ATK |?DEF}}</dd></dl>

with sections which are not available left out. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:23, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

Why? "List" isn't exclusive from traditional or video games or advanced; it's a general tip. It should be at the end of Advanced Format tips, because that's what they are: advanced format tips. The Pope 23:46, November 13, 2012 (UTC)

Without headings, there are more people who will add tips after the list, ignoring formats.

The list can contain cards from both Traditional and Advanced formats, so it can be ambiguous as to which format section to put it under.

Lists can be long so if it gets added at the end of the advanced format tips, it gets in the way of the rest of the page.

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:09, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Should "List" headings be removed?Edit

• I'd suggest to add them for the reasons I mentioned in my previous comment. The Pope wants to remove them. So more opinions are needed. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 20:03, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Your reasons for keeping them are very sound, and I agree with them. --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 20:19, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that a list of cards is a tip on its own. It's no different from any other tips. It's informing a reader of their options in a way that is easy to manage instead of just manually going off them one by one. Putting it at the end with a big ol generic mindless nondescript "LIST" and then a mechanical "LIST OF MONSTERS YOU CAN SUMMON" makes it feel robotic. Just put it at the end of the tips page, as it should be. And people should know better than to put tips after that; if they do, just move them on top of them. Because leaving it as "LIST" makes it look, for lack of a better word, ugly. The Pope 21:57, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

If you put a list at the end of a tips page when there is a Traditional Format header, it looks like the list is only applicable to the Traditional Format. If you put it before the Traditional Format header, it causes people to think there is nothing under it, and they miss the Traditional Format tips. Putting it as its own section is the best solution, even if it technically be in the advanced section. Ugliness is subjective, and I say it looks worse coming before the Traditional Format section. --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 22:25, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't think the list heading could be so controversial. It never struck me as ugly or unprofessional. At least not to a ridiculous degree. It always seemed neat to me. A bulleted list of advanced format tips with the list, then the traditional format section, seems unbalanced when it's a long list. Plus, the list wouldn't be suitable there, as Falzar pointed out, Traditional Format cards can be listed. The list also gives the impression, or at least gives me the impression that it's the end of the page, so especially when there's no table of contents, I wouldn't notice there's a Traditional Format section, unless I decide to scroll through the entire list.

Even ignoring everything else, Falzar's third point seems like enough reason to give it a section. If a page on a wiki has a lot of content on one aspect, generally you give it a section. -- Deltaneos (talk) 23:12, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Even if given its own section, just putting "LIST" at the top is incredibly unprofessional and paltry looking. The Pope 03:45, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

How else would you describe it, though? "List" exactly sums up what it is, and given there's only a single such list on any given tip page, anything more would be wholly superfluous. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 18:56, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

"List of monsters that can be Special Summoned"; "List of cards that can be searched", anything but "LIST". The Pope 01:42, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

But once again, that's completely superfluous. It needlessly duplicates the description that immediately precedes the list proper. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 02:24, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Then here's an astounding thought (roll with me here): why not just cut the secondary description altogether? The Pope 01:43, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Because it changes, having a uniform heading for all lists is better.

Some pages have multiple lists.

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:45, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Then you have a different heading per list. If you do want a broad name, then you need something better than "LIST". That's too simplistic and unprofessional. The Pope 15:50, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I still fail to see what part of it is "simplistic and unprofessional"; that's like saying the name "Index" for the root forum page is "simplistic and unprofessional". Why, exactly, is succinct and to-the-point so bad? Why does it have to be more verbose to be "professional"? And why exactly should we even care? 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 20:08, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Because it looks ugly and makes us look like illiterate idiots. And there's a difference between the index, which there is only one of and so "Index" is indicative in and of itself, and lists, which there are many of different types so "List" is not descriptive in the slightest. The Pope 20:13, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

From what I've seen, each tip page has at most one list. There's therefore no need to distinguish between multiple lists; the fact that the list is on tip page X is enough to tell the reader generally what the context for the list is, and the description below the header fills in the details.

"Ugly" is in the eyes of the beholder. It may not be obvious from many of my comments (as most of the regular contributors here can attest, and as you may have gleaned from my comments here, I am more than capable of posting walls of text, aided by my penchant for rambling =D ), but I'm actually a minimalist when it comes to aspects of design; I can't stand visual clutter and prefer to reduce it whenever possible (the extent to which I succeed in such efforts is another matter entirely). Therefore, to my eye, "List" is far less "ugly" than any more expressive header when the extra expressiveness is not needed for disambiguative purposes. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 23:05, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay now you're just contradicting yourselves with whether there's multiple lists or not. The Pope 05:36, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

I don't normally touch tip pages, so I've been discussing from memory. I don't remember most tip pages I have bothered to look at having more than one list, hence my comment. If it's common, however, for tip pages to have multiple lists, then obviously I've been arguing under false assumptions and my arguments suddenly aren't nearly as relevant.

On the other hand, clicking Special:Random/Card Tips a bunch of times only got me three tip pages with a list (and only one list: Card Tips:Pandaborg, Card Tips:Magi Magi ☆ Magician Gal, and Card Tips:Jurrac Velphito (which uses some weird hardcoded table whose purpose isn't immediately clear to me)), so I don't think I was so wrong after all. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 06:54, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

I edit the card tips pages a lot and it is a rare occurance that I come across a "List". Yes, you may say "List" is too simplistic but as Dinoguy pointed out: what could we replace the heading with? To be fair, headings if anything, are supposed to be inconspicuous so and are there to just label a section, so I'm struggling to notice what a lot of the fuss is about. ;) And I feel the list belongs in the upper part of the article as the list only applies to the Advanced Format. I can still see your point though-ish.. --Spongebob456 ^(Talk) 07:26, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Just as an example, the only Tips page with more than one List that I remember is Card Tips:Hieratic Dragon of Asar (and is using the old type of List). Spongebob456, the Lists can actually be used to Traditional Format as well (for example, if you wanna list all Level 4 DARK monsters, "Witch of the Black Forest" must be there even if its Forbidden). --Missign0 (talk • contribs) 11:42, February 8, 2013 (UTC)