Talk:Alignment

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Merge with Attributes

Attribute and Alignment seem to be different iterations of the same thing and there are other iterations we haven't classed separately. Most of the items we currently class as "Alignments" have been called "Attributes" (属性) in the Japanese manga.

We don't currently have Alignment pages for "Light" and "Dark" which stops us from properly documenting some series. "White Magic" and "Black Magic" are sometimes localised as "Light" and "Dark", but they seem to be distinct things in the manga.

Table below shows what games each Attribute/Alignment is used in. Where localised in English, it shows the localised name. Otherwise it shows a checkmark (✓).

One argument I can see for keeping them separate is Forbidden Memories uses both... kinda. It uses the system from the Gameboy games, but renames each of them to be a Guardian Star. It also uses the OCG Attributes, but purely as a decorative measure, making the cards resemble OCG cards, by having a kanji-less Attribute icon. (e.g. "Dark Magician (FMR)") This has no effect on gameplay.

Japanese	闇	光	黒魔	白魔	悪魔	幻想魔	水	火	炎	木	森	土	地	雷	風	神
Translated	Dark	Light	Black Magic	White Magic	Demon Magic	Illusion Magic	Water	Fire	Flame	Wood	Forest	Earth	Earth	Thunder	Wind	God
Manga	Dark	Light	Black Magic	White Magic	Demon & Devil	Illusionist	Water	Fire	—	Wood	Forest	Earth	—	Lightning	—	God
Retsuden	—	—	—	—	—	—	✓	✓	—	✓	—	✓	—	✓	—	—
Gum	✓	✓	—	—	—	—	✓	✓	—	✓	—	✓	—	✓	—	—
Sealdass	✓	✓	—	—	—	—	✓	✓	—	✓	—	✓	—	✓	—	—
Gameboy	—	—	Shadow	Light	Fiend	Dreams	Aqua	—	Pyro	—	Forest	Earth	—	Thunder	Wind	Devine
			Dark				Water		Fire							Divine
FMR	—	—	Mercury	Sun	Moon	Venus	Neptune	—	Mars	—	Jupiter	Uranus	—	Pluto	Saturn	—
	✓	✓	—	—	—	—	✓	—	✓	—	—	—	✓	—	✓	—
OCG/TCG	DARK	LIGHT	—	—	—	—	WATER	—	FIRE	—	—	—	EARTH	—	WIND	DIVINE
CMC/CM	DARK	LIGHT	—	—	—	—	WATER	—	FIRE	—	WOOD	—	EARTH	THUNDER	WIND	—

• Fire (火) and Flame (炎) seem to be the same thing, just renamed.
• Wood (木) and Forest (森) seem to be the same thing, just renamed.
• The two Earth (土 and 地) seem to be the same thing, just renamed.

So essentially, I think we should merge:

• Alignment → Attribute
• Water (Alignment) → WATER
• Fire (Alignment) → FIRE
• Earth (Alignment) → EARTH
• Divine (Alignment) → DIVINE

And update the other Alignment pages to be Attribute pages, where reasonable using their localised names.

-- Deltaneos (talk) 00:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

This seems reasonable to me, though I have a few questions first:

1. Where does "Alignment" come from? Was it used officially in some video game? And if so, what was it called in the Japanese version?
2. The Alignment page claims that some Alignments were adapted to Types in certain mediums (Bandai's Sealdass and the OCG/TCG); do you think this is actually true, or is it just pattern-matching on our part?
3. There were loads of products released before and during the Toei era, which is where a lot of weirdness originates from (since the OCG didn't exist yet to act as a stabilizer on the rules); how many of these did you check for some version of the Attribute/Alignment system? (I'm sure there were several which didn't feature them at all, but are there any you didn't check because the pages weren't restored after the Incident?)

Assuming no major wrinkles turn up anywhere else, I don't see any strong reasons from this summary/overview to oppose merging these systems. FMR's Attribute pips should just be treated as something separate from the implementation perspective if we ever get around to documenting them, since they have no in-game gameplay impact.

「ディノ奴千？！」^{☎ Dinoguy1000} 06:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

No objections from me either. Should be good for housekeeping and finding the information too. Sanokal K-T (talk • contribs) 20:48, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to reply to the questions above.

1. Where does "Alignment" come from?
   • The North American Dark Duel Stories use the term "Alignment" in the manual. The only time I can think of it being used in the game is in the "sort by" menu, where it is shortened to "Al". In the European version, it's changed to "At", for "Attribute". In the Japanese, it is 召, for 召喚, meaning "Summon". The English versions of The Sacred Cards and Reshef of Destruction also use "Summon".
   • Forbidden Memories uses "Cosmic Alignment" in its English manual. Although they're called Guardian Stars in the game itself, which is consistent with the Japanese name, 守護星.
   • The Japanese term for "Alignment" (Summon) might have been used in the manga:

     Japanese: File:Four Types of Magic-Users - Japanese.png - 召喚魔族相関図 = Summon Magic-Users Correlation Diagram

     English: File:Four Types of Magic-Users - Japanese.png - "The Four Types of Magic-Users"

     Although the only mention of "Summon" in the accompanying dialogue is:

     プレイヤーが 召喚する「魔族」や 「モンスター」にもそれぞれ属性があり

     "Monsters" and "Magic-Users" Summoned by the player have Attributes.

     which in the English manga becomes:

     The monsters and Magic-Users that the players Summon each belong to a particular Type or Element!

2. The Alignment page claims that some Alignments were adapted to Types in certain mediums (Bandai's Sealdass and the OCG/TCG); do you think this is actually true, or is it just pattern-matching on our part?

   You mean Carddass, rather than Sealdass? If you're okay with using the word "Alignments" for "manga Attributes", then yes, I agree.

   • DM1 only had one system, Type, which contained a mix of Types and Attributes from the manga and some original Types. The Attributes Demon Magic/Fiend, Fire/Pyro, Water/Aqua and Thunder were all made into Types in DM1. Neither DM2 nor the OCG cared to reclassify monsters with those Types when they introduced Attributes. That's why DM2 has four Attributes/Alignments with the same name as Types and the OCG has two.
   • The Bandai Carddass similarly only had one system, which mixed Types from the manga with the Magic User Attributes.
   • The OCG also added Illusion Magic/Illusionist as a Type later on, while it was an Attribute in the manga and video games.

3. There were loads of products released before and during the Toei era, which is where a lot of weirdness originates from (since the OCG didn't exist yet to act as a stabilizer on the rules); how many of these did you check for some version of the Attribute/Alignment system?

   I don't know. I couldn't tell you have many I've checked or how many exist that I didn't check. I'm not expecting much variance though. I think there's at least two others that use something resembling Attributes/Alignments, one of which is Yu-Gi-Oh! Marusho Duelist Sticker Set.

-- Deltaneos (talk) 23:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Having gone through the original manga and documenting as many rules and card classifications as I could at Duel Monsters (manga), I need to correct a few points I made:

• "Black/White/Demon/Illusion Magic" are Types, not Attributes. Even in the cited chapter they're called Types.
• "God" is not mentioned to be an Attribute in the manga, but it is a Type in Yu-Gi-Oh! R.
• Bandai did not use manga Attributes as Types.

Anyway, I think I'm happy to not merge Alignments into Attributes. I don't think it makes sense to call the four Magic Users Attributes. But we would need Attribute pages for "WOOD" and "THUNDER". Then we can properly support Retsudan, Gum, Sealdass and Capsule Monsters by using Attributes instead of Alignments. -- Deltaneos (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)