Template talk:DOR card

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Broader template

Hey Delt, did you look at all at the possibility of creating a True Duel Monsters card template that would cover DOR and FMR? I don't actually know how similar these games are (having played it, I'm decently familiar with DOR, but I've never even seen FMR gameplay), but the Japanese names suggest they're a series, which just by itself implies a lot of shared features. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 10:36, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

I think the games are too different. DOR as you probably know, is played on a board, which the cards can move around, while FMR is a watered-down version of the TCG.

• FMR has no Effect Monsters.
• FMR has no Deck Costs.
• FMR has Guardian Stars.
• Many cards have different effects. Of course effects referring to moving around the board make no sense the context of FMR.
• The way they divide and colour Spell and Trap Cards (Magic, Power Up, Ritual and Trap) is the same, but some cards have different types between games, e.g. "Cursebreaker" and "Magical Labyrinth".
• The Ritual Cards work the same, but I think the material is sometimes different or less strict in DOR.
• FMR doesn't have Attributes. Although that's subjective. The icons are removed, but their background colour remains. No cards refer to Attributes, but seem to affect them anyway. e.g. "Salamandra" affects all would-be-FIRE monsters.

Despite being in the same series as DOR, I'd say FMR is more like the early Duel Monsters video games in terms of gameplay. -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:02, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

OK, that's persuasive enough for me. =) 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 00:58, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Image names

So, poking through some of our DOR images, it appears that there are three basic types of image we might have for any given card:

• the "info pane" image used for most of the examples here, e.g. File:BlueEyesWhiteDragon-DOR-EN-VG.png
• an actual "card-style" image, e.g. File:CocoonofEvolution-DOR-EN-VG.jpg
• a non-card image, e.g. File:KingTigerWanghu-DOR-EN-VG-NC.jpg

(there's also whatever this is, though that could just be an NC image with a weird crop/angle or something)

The non-card images are already covered in terms of naming, but not the other two: depending where you look, either one might have the "base" image designation or the "-2" tag, and I'm sure there are cases where something else was done; I haven't looked through terribly many images. So, I have to ask which we want as the "base" image, and what to do for the other type of image, assuming we even want both images (do we?). Thoughts? 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 01:20, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

I think for all mediums which have cards, we should put the card image in the standard file name. Although that would mean renaming over 5000 Tag Force images. For the filename for the other DOR images, we could use something like -data or -info. -- Deltaneos (talk) 02:17, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Actually some form of Basic Info would be most appropriate. When you view a card, you get a list of options, "Basic Info", "Special Info", "Power-up Card" and "Leader Ability". "Basic Info" is the shot used in images. -- Deltaneos (talk) 03:35, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Could you give a line-up of examples of each type? 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 03:40, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Applicable power-ups

As mentioned in the above section, when you view a monster, you get the option to see a list of applicable Power-up Cards. Should we add a section for this? We could muse on the possibility of somehow handling this automatically. At the moment, I'm just wondering how we could present this information? A collapsible table cell? -- Deltaneos (talk) 03:42, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

.hlist .hcomma, maybe? 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 14:06, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

And done. Looks good. Surprisingly these new tables have been independent of collapsible boxes. It's a big contrast to the current design.

Looking at the automation; Handy enough, I think every monster has at least one applicable power-up, either "Paralyzing Potion" or "Machine Conversion Factory". So we just have to check if the card is a monster to determine if the section appears or not. Most of them are simple Type and/or Attribute checks. "7 Completed", "Multiply", "Elegant Egotist", "Cocoon of Evolution" and "Metalmorph" require name checks. "Crush Card" requires an ATK check. The more difficult ones are:

• "Elf's Light": Monsters with "Elf" in their name. I would assume it means Japanese name, but it works on "Mystical Elf" ("Holy Elf") and not "Celtic Guardian" ("Elf Swordsman"). Could it be based on the English name or work differently in the English and Japanese versions?
• "Steel Shell": Monsters with shells.
• "Horn of Light" and "Horn of the Unicorn": Non-DARK horned monsters.
• "Electro-Whip" and "Cyber Shield": Female monsters. We could have a parameter to record if the card is female. But people are bound to disagree with it. Prime example; "Tactical Warrior" (aka "Command Knight") is unaffected by these cards, but is female in other media.
• "Malevolent Nuzzler": Female Fiend monsters. (See above.)
• "Megamorph", "Riryoku" and "Cursebreaker": Every monster. Not really a problem. But DOR excludes them from these lists, presumably because they're implied. Should we list them though?
• "Insect Imitation": Monsters with "Egg" in their name. (See "Elf's Light").

-- Deltaneos (talk) 18:00, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

I would say automate what's reasonable, and have a supplementary parameter for the cases that can't be automated. So:

• Go with its behavior in the English game for now. Are there any cards with "Elf" in their English names that it doesn't work on (or vice versa)? If not, automate it.
• Parameter.
• Parameter, maybe with a check to make sure the tagged monster isn't DARK.
• "Female" parameter, but only if its only visible output is adding the power-up cards to the list, I think.
• Same as above, plus a check to make sure the monster is Fiend-Type.
• Might as well list the, since we'll already be using automation. Maybe don't add them to the property, though, in favor of specifying in prose wherever needed.
• Same as for "Elf's Light".

「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 18:55, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

• According to DOR, "Elf" monsters include "Mystical Elf", "Ancient Elf", "Dark Elf", "Gemini Elf", "Wing Egg Elf", "Dancing Elf". A semantic search on [[Archetypes::Elf]][[DOR number::+]] shows "Celtic Guardian" is the only "Elf" monster, whose not an "Elf" in DOR. It might just mean Spellcaster and Fairy "Elf" monsters, but I've checked a Japanese wiki and it just says "Elf" monsters. (By the way, the effect of "Wing Egg Elf" is Randomly transforms to a monster with "Elf" in its name when strengthened with Insect Imitation. The fact that it can only grow into female monsters would suggest that it is female, but it's unaffected by female power-ups, so we can't assume "Elf" = female "Elf".) As you said, we can just go with English names. If anyone who's played the Japanese version tells us "Celtic Guardian" is included in the Japanese version, we can easily change it. -- Deltaneos (talk) 21:41, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
• "Steel Shell" affects "Morinphen" (that has shell?), "Sea King Dragon", "Tripwire Beast", "Bolt Escargot", "Boulder Tortoise", "Catapult Turtle", "Monsturtle", "Turtle Tiger", "Psychic Kappa", "30,000-Year White Turtle", "Kappa Avenger", "Turtle Raccoon", "Turtle Bird", "Crab Turtle", "Giant Turtle Who Feeds on Flames", "Hyosube", "Muka Muka". We could get it to target monsters with "turtle" in their {{ lc: }} name and check the other eight by full name.
• I got the horns messed-up. "Horn of the Unicorn" is for DARK. "Horn of Light" is for non-DARK. You can see all the horned and not-so-horned monsters at User:Deltaneos/horned monsters. I would not have begun typing that list if I realised how long it was going to be.
• I'm not going to list all the female cards in the game. Parameter sounds like the best option.
• ↑
• I've already dropped the property. When this started to become automated, I didn't think it was needed anymore.
• "Egg" monsters include "Ryu-Ran", "Manga Ryu-Ran", "Monster Egg", "Gorgon Egg" and "Wing Egg Elf" and do not include "Three-Legged Zombies" or "Winged Egg of New Life". They can all be identified by mentioning "Insect Imitation" in their lore or having "エッ" in their Japanese name.

So check English names for "Elf" monsters, Japanese names for "Egg" monsters, English names for "Turtle" monsters, full English names for the remaining shelled monsters, add parameters for female and horned monsters? Archetype pages for "Egg", horned and shelled monsters wouldn't be a bad idea. -- Deltaneos (talk) 21:41, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Are we wanting to avoid using SMW in any of the automation? If so, interpret my comments below where I do use it as more me seeing what SMW says about stuff.

• {{ #ask: [[DOR number::+]][[Card category::Monster Card]][[English name::~*Elf*]] }} → . At some point, I'd like to try playing the Japanese version, if for no other reason than to get card images, though I don't anticipate that happening for a considerable period of time at the rate I'm going.
• {{ #ask: [[DOR number::+]][[Card category::Monster Card]][[English name::~*Turtle*||~*turtle*]] }} → (I have no idea why that's picking up "Boulder Tortoise", but whatever)
• I keep wanting to say a property could be useful, but the only situation it might be would be where we need to avoid the weight of the subtemplate for some reason.
• {{ #ask: [[DOR number::+]][[Card category::Monster Card]][[Japanese name::~*エッ*]] }} →

Yep, that all sounds good, though it means we need to add some rudimentary effect property properties (if nothing else, just so we can mark a card as supporting other cards/archetypes/Types/Attributes/etc.). Egg is obvious enough, but what might we call the archetype pages for the horned and shelled monsters? (I'm also inclined to argue that we might want a separate page for monsters that are female in DOR, since there are differences between it and other media.) 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 22:57, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

That depends on what automation you're referring to. It'll be useful for getting applicable monsters for a power-up. But getting applicable power-ups for a monster can be done cheaper without SMW.

I think the problem with your turtle query is || doesn't work with wildcards. Otherwise it also ends up searching other properties for the value. You need to use [[DOR number::+]][[Card category::Monster Card]]<q>[[English name::~*Turtle*]] OR [[English name::~*turtle*]]</q>.

I'm most profess I'm not positively sure what property purpose you're proposing we propagate with the effect property properties proposition.

I think female, horned and shelled are the same in FMR and DOR, with DOR having more cards to add to each group. Score one for your earlier suggestion. We currently only have a List of female cards page. A number of cards target female monsters, so we probably have justification for creating a separate female page for the archetype/identifier/whatever. We have our main List of female cards to go with it. We could then add another "List of female cards (DOR/True Duel monsters/video games)".

Page names for shelled and horned monsters? Something of the format "[Shell|Horn](ed) (monster)"?

So we'll be adding stuff to detect if DOR cards are "Elf" and "Egg" monsters. Should we get that to add a [[DOR archetypes::whatever]] to the pages too? -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:03, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, all the power-ups have been catered for now except the ones for female and horned monsters. What parameters are we going to use? female = true and horn = true? -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:33, February 25, 2013 (UTC)