Forum:A Bevy Of Questions

So, I have a giant slew of questions / rulings that I think should help clarify some oddball questions about relatively random (but very relevant to the decks I run)

1) Fire King High Avatar Garunix + End Phase Offerings to the Doomed

How will this play out? Is this legitimate or will Garunix miss the timing? I ask because I love using 3 Reckless Greed and Offerings, and this only helps add another out to multiple situations. Will there be timing issues?

2) Flame Tiger : Does He Chain / Is he chainable? What happens when his effect activates in Standby and I have a Garunix waiting? Do I pick who goes first, or what? Confused.

3) Horus Metaphys Dragon vs Royal Decree while under Trap Stun Is this a valid target that will permanently extend the negation if I were to MST ? I believe not.

4) Horus Metaphys Dragon vs Synchro on Opponent's Main Phase. Cards like Formula Synchron and this one trap that lets you Synchro on Opponent's Turn; Urgent Tuning . When summoned does Horus miss timing?

5) Black Rose Dragon on Opponent's turn with Formula. Miss timing or no?

Thanks in advance!

Soiuku (talk • contribs) 01:56, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

In regards to the Formula ones, I think that they only miss timing of Formula's effect or Urgent Tuning were activated in response to something else. Sanokal K-T (talk • contribs) 02:04, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

IN ORDER

1 Garunix doesn't miss timing, if he dies, he comes back, when he does, everything dies. It is NOT optional (Mandatory effects NEVER miss timing). also Offerings to the doomed would not make ANYTHING miss timing (missing timing and skipping the phase things happen in are different things). further, there is a difference between standby and draw phases. Garunix comes back in the Standby phase and Solomon's Lawbook is the ONLY card that can skip that phase.

2 they do not go off in the same phase, Draw phase happens before standby, so Flame tiger comes out first garunix comes out second and nukes him back to grave(if you want it to, Flame tiger is optional, Garunix is not). there is no chain (unless something else responds). if they DID go off in the same standby phase, yes you would pick which one happens first.

3 I'm not entirely sure what you are asking. if you are asking if you can stack horus' negation on top of trap stun, then yes you can. and it will stay negated even when trap stun expires

4 Horus will NEVER miss timing. EVER. you can tell when the cards says "IF" or "When". "IF" will NEVER miss timing.

5 If Formula is Chain link 2 or higher, then yes, timing is missed. if it is chain link 1, then black roses summoning is the last thing to happen and you are free to use her effect.

Missing the Timing May help you, since you do not seem to quite get it (it took me a while too)

Any other questions or need clarification/explanation on any of that?

DreadKaiser (talk • contribs) 03:39, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

Here : http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Timing_Questions?t=20141119014756 I asked about timings for Esper Girl , Silent Psychic Wizard , and Hushed Psychic Cleric vs cards like Enemy Controller , and Spiritual Earth Art - Kurogane but I was told that they would never miss the timing. Yet the effects are When effects which confuses me. I have been led to believe from Missing the Timing because : Sometimes an optional effect can only be activated "when" a condition happens. In this case, you are only allowed to activate the effect when the activation condition being met was the last thing to happen in the game.

The last thing to happen in the case of Spiritual Earth Art - Kurogane or Hushed Psychic Cleric was the summon / snatch of the monster so why doesn't Cleric / Esper girl miss the timing? I understand now that Silent Psychic Wizard doesn't miss the timing becase of ' If' but I'm still confused as to how these optional effects happen.

Transmodify has the same confusion as well for me. Clearly the last thing to happen is the summon of the new monster, unless the chain order has something to do? Since Esper /Cleric gets sacked Cl1 > Transmodify / Kurogane summons something CL2 and since the chain goes in reverse first thing to happen is the summon , then the add / summon ?

If not, please show me a literal card that could make Esper / Cleric miss the timing, because now that I understand If doesn't miss timing, I need more clarification on When things. I think After effects don't miss either ?

And If Esper / Cleric really can't / don't miss the timing, then I'd like to see a card that can miss the timing from Transmodify / Kurogane / Controller to help me better grasp.

Why is a Negated card still an applicable target for Horus / single target negation cards?

There are some cards that I hate, but I look for ways around them, and sometimes Generic Negation works well; hence why I run Horus and had those questions about him. Now, on the subject of card negations, how can I tell if a card can activate Multiple Times in the Same Chain? That annoys me with Monsters who I find out when I breakthrough / fiendish them they can activate again! Or to my chagrin when a monster of mine CAN'T activate multiple times in a chain!

Soiuku (talk • contribs) 00:41, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Int eh case of Esper girl, she cannot miss timing as she is not optional. "When <condition> you can; <Effect>" is the wording you are looking for. that "Can" bit is important as it means the effect is optional. mandatory effects CANNOT miss timing, they will go off in a new chain if they have to.

Same with Cleric, neither effects are optional, when their triggers happen, their effects happen.

a negated card is a valid target as it is still face up on field. "Face-up card" is the ONLY thing Horus cares about. its like activating 2 skill drains, they'd just apply over eachother

anything that is a Quick Effect by defualt can be activated more then once per chain unless it explicitly says otherwise like with LaDD or Nukeroach. this is a newer feature thanks to PSCT, with some of the older cards, you simply can't tell by text alone (that i know of, anyone feel free to correct me on that)DreadKaiser (talk • contribs) 00:52, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Wait, so it's the ' can ' part that tells me if it is optional or mandatory? Then What is the difference between ' If ' and ' When ' ? I read somewhere that ' If ' cards will basically just wait for the chance to resolve if they activate and thus never miss the timing.. . true?

Soiuku (talk • contribs) 01:07, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

• Soiuku, the only time where cards can Miss the Timing is When ..., you can ...".
• In cases where "You Can" is absent, they are mandatory.
• In cases where it is "If ..., you can ..." then you can still activate the effect regardless of what was the last action.
• There is no difference between "When ..., mandatory effect" and "If ..., mandatory effect". This is sadly an example of where Konami's Problem-Solving Card Text didnt fix everything. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 04:22, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yes what you read is true. the explanation is: "If" effects only care that their trigger happened, "When" effects have to actually go off WHEN their trigger happens, so if something happens inbetween the trigger and their earliest response window (essentially if their trigger was Chain link 2 or higher) then they missed the timing. As lord Gio said, Mandatory "When" effects really should be "If" effects, since they are functionally identical.

Any other Questions?

DreadKaiser (talk • contribs) 06:06, November 23, 2014 (UTC)

Konami has only just started making all mandatory effects start with an "If...", so this won't be as big a problem in the future. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 06:28, November 23, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Ok , so If and When are Mandatory . You Can means that the effect is optional (in some cases)

One last question : How do you know when a card will start a new chain to resolve properly?

Soiuku (talk • contribs) 15:51, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

For the more recent cards, effects that start Chains normally worded "activation condition: cost(s) if any; effect on resolution." Note the presence of colons and semicolons. If a card effect has neither, it doesn't start a Chain. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 02:05, November 26, 2014 (UTC)