Forum:Large Heat Wave vs. IRS

Say I have an active Large Heat Wave in play, and I just Special Summoned a Normal Monster with less than 1500. My opponent only has Effect Monsters on the field. Can I activate Inferno Reckless Summon, in this case, to bring out two other copies of my Normal monster, or would the fact that the opponent is not able to Special Summon any Effect monsters due to LHW's effect prevent me from activating IRS?66.228.109.2 (talk) 19:36, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

You should be allowed to special summon your normal monster by the effect of 1rs. LHW has absolutely no effect on normal monsters Yug18-11 (talk • contribs) 19:48, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I know that, but my question is whether I can activate it while LHW is active if the opponent doesn't have any non-Effect monsters on their field to summon copies of. Would it be like if they controlled a Limited monster or a token, where you can summon the monsters but they can't, or would I not be able to activate it, at all? 66.228.109.2 (talk) 21:29, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

You shouldn't be able to activate Inferno Reckless Summon while the opponent controls only Effect monsters. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 00:16, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Because of LHW? That doesn't make much sense, since IRS's rulings state that you can activate it when the opponent only controls a token or a monster that is Limited, and you can summon (but they won't), so what makes LHW different?66.228.109.2 (talk)

Well, this question is kinda weird and a Konami's ruling says that this situation is still under debate. By the way, it should be similar to "The Shallow Grave". You cannot activate The Shallow Grave while you have Large Heat Wave on your field and the opponent has only Effect monsters in their Graveyard. It should be similar with Inferno Reckless Summon. By the way, when the card will be released in the TCG, we can sent a question to Konami to be sure about the answer. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 08:01, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that we can compare the "The Shallow Grave vs Large Heat Wave" case to this one. Inferno Reckless Summon doesn't need both players to special summon monsters for its effect to resolve correctly. It should be the same with this ruling:

"Inferno Reckless Summon" may be activated if your opponent only controls monsters like "Ancient Gear Golem" or "The Wicked Dreadroot" which cannot be Special Summoned. When resolving "Inferno Reckless Summon", you still Special Summon monsters even if your opponent selects a monster like "Ancient Gear Golem" that cannot be Special Summoned."-- HHTurtle ^Talk   11:22, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Again, the situation is very weird!

Large Heat Wave prevents Special Summons. Ancient Gear Golem does not prevent something. It just cannot be Special Summoned. A card to compare it should be something that prevents Special Summons like Vanity's Ruler, ect. Sadly there are no rulings about Inferno Reckless Summon about a such effect to compare.

Since Inferno Reckless Summon doesn't have a specific ruling about this situation, we can try to compare it with other effects that make both players to Special Summon a monster, like The Shallow Grave. But one can see that The Shallow Grave works differently in each _CG! In TCG it cannot be activated while "Vanity's Ruler" is on the field, when in OCG you can activate it while you control also "Vanity's Ruler" and you will only Special Summon a monster. Go figure!

Vanity's Fiend prevent ANY king of Special Summons. Large Heat Wave prevent only Special Summons of effect monsters. So they may be not working exactly the same.

What card prevent only a kind of Special Summons? Koa'ki Meiru Drago is close but it hasn't any rulings.

One way to test situations is WC10 (but it isn't much reliable to trust). Well, WC10 supports Vanity's Ruler's OCG ruling about The Shallow Grave. It does not allow you to activate The Shallow Grave while the opponent has only Dark monsters in their graveyard and koa'ki Meiru Drago is on the field. It allows you to activate Inferno Reckless Summon in both situations. It also allows you to activate Inferno Reckless Summon while the opponent has only monsters with 1000 or less ATK and you have Power Filter.

According to WC10, you should be able to activate Inferno Reckless Summon while Large Heat Wave is face-up on the field. The problem is in TCG with Vanity's Ruler's ruling that contradicts the OCG and more because it looks like it is a general ruling about any effect that allows both players to Special Summon a monster, thus it includes Inferno Reckless Summon as well! And Barrier Statue of the Abyss's ruling seems to agree with that. In TCG it really depends on what Konami wants to rule that situation.

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 14:02, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

So you're telling us that this card is super powerful card, overpower than Koa'Ki Meiru Drago and it latter? --FredCat ^{His litter • FR} 14:04, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

So, we're basically dealing with a possible OCG/TCG BKSS discontinuity. That's just great. I emailed Konami's TCG branch for ruling clarification on this, so hopefully I'll be getting an answer, soon. Until then, I guess I'll go with what WC2010 says and assume I can combo IRS with LHW without incident. 66.228.109.2 (talk) 15:14, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing that we are looking at a lot of OCG/TCG rulings contradictions here. There's also something weird with "Ancient Gear Golem vs Inferno Reckless Summon":

• OCG: ""Inferno Reckless Summon" may be activated if your opponent only controls monsters like "Ancient Gear Golem" or "The Wicked Dreadroot" which cannot be Special Summoned. When resolving "Inferno Reckless Summon", you still Special Summon monsters even if your opponent selects a monster like "Ancient Gear Golem" that cannot be Special Summoned."
• TCG: "Your opponent cannot chose a monster that cannot be Special Summoned."-- HHTurtle ^Talk   17:26, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

While that's true, Netrep also says this:

"Inferno Reckless Summon" cannot be activated when you Special Summon a monster token. Your opponent cannot choose a monster token.

You can activate "Inferno Reckless Summon" when the only face-up monster your opponent controls is a monster token or a monster that is Limited. In this case you will Special Summon, but your opponent will not.

So, according to those two rulings, if the opponent has a monster that can be Special Summoned and a mosnter that cannot be Special Summoned when IRS is activated, they cannot chose the monster they control that cannot be Special Summoned for IRS' effect, but if they only control monsters that cannot be Special Summoned, then tough luck for them; they're left out and you're the only one who gains IRS' effect. If that's the case, then IRS + LHW should work. 66.228.109.2 (talk) 18:12, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

So, it seems that Inferno Reckless Summon also works differently in each _CG! The Shallow Grave is not the only one! Maybe all(?) effects that allows both players to Special Summon a monster(s) in their field work differently in each _CG!

So, the answer to OP's question will be that in TCG Inferno Reckless Summon cannot be activated because the opponent has only effect monsters on the field, but in OCG it can be activated and only you will Special Summon a monster(s).

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 19:16, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

No, the rulings I posted are from Netrep, who only deal with TCG-only rulings, so these are the TCG rulings for IRS. The TCG ruling listed on the wiki in fact quotes the second ruling word for word. So, according to the TCG, IRS can activate and resolve properly if the opponent only has monsters that aren't able to be Special Summoned. 66.228.109.2 (talk) 20:43, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well, with a second view, the rulings "HHTurtle" posted may not contradict at all! Nevermind those!

By the way, as I said before, you can't compare effects like Large Heat Wave with effects like Ancient Gear Golem and Tokens. The first prevents Special Summons when the other do not! It is possible for Inferno Reckless Summon to be able to activate when Large Heat Wave is active though, but not because it works the same with Tokens, but because Konami decided to rule it like that.

Just wait until the card will be released in TCG and I'll ask that question to Konami for the final answer.

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 21:28, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Lol, I did more research into the summon prevention scenario and I found this: Forum:Barrier Statues..-- HHTurtle ^Talk   07:35, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Well, my answer in that thread was probably the result of WC10. I maybe correct though there, but it will depend of that Konami will rule it. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 09:27, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

I leave you guys alone for two days, and this is what happens? O.o

"The Shallow Grave" works COMPLETELY differently from "Inferno Reckless Summon". You can't activate "The Shallow Grave" if your opponent's field is full; you can't activate it if the only monster in your opponent's Graveyard is "Ancient Gear Golem". There's no reason to compare the two.

"Inferno Reckless Summon" only requires your opponent to control a monster for you to activate it. It doesn't matter if the monster can be Summoned, or if your opponent can Summon. When it resolves, your opponent is then forced to Special Summon as many monsters as possible -- unfortunately, 0 is a valid result. "Large Heat Wave" does nothing to it.

I mistranslated the OCG ruling on "Inferno Reckless Summon". It should say, the opponent cannot select a monster that cannot be Special Summoned, so only you will Special Summon.

"Bone Temple Block" says that the OCG ruling on "The Shallow Grave" is correct.

Also, why are we calling it "Large Heat Wave"? "Large Cold Wave" says that it should just be "Heat Wave". --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 21:00, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Yes! In the OCG at least, testing and every ruling supports that Inferno Reckless Summon can be activated in almost every situation, but that's not the problem.

In the TCG is where I have a doubt about it. Vanity's Ruler's ruling seems to be a general ruling for all effects that performs Special Summons in both fields. Inferno Reckless Summon is one of those, so that ruling may apply for Inferno Reckless Summon as well. That ruling makes also a contradiction it the _CGs about The Shallow Grave, so it may create a contradiction about Inferno Reckless Summon as well. (I compared The Shallow Grave with Inferno Reckless Summon only because they are 2 effect that perform Special Summons to both fields, ignoring other differences they may have!)

Ancient Gear Golem's situation is different. Ancient Gear Golem's effect does not prevent Special Summons. You can activate Inferno Reckless Summon but not The Shallow Grave with only Ancient Gear Golem in the Field/Graveyard probably because The Shallow Grave targets the monster when Inferno Reckless Summon does not. By the way, those should not be compared with effects that prevent Special Summons like Heat Wave. (3rd time I'm saying this!)

So, how can we rule it in the TCG? We follow the OCG stuff (rulings, testing, ect)? Or follow Vanity's Ruler's TCG ruling, because Inferno Reckless Summon is also an effect that "would make both players Special Summon"? We can give an answer but it has more or less chances to work the other way. That's when we ask the question to Konami! Probably Konami will ignore Vanity's Ruler's ruling and rule Inferno Reckless Summon like the OCG, but just in case..!

There is also Bone Temple Block's ruling! It completely contradicts with Vanity's Ruler's ruling, so... go figure!

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 23:27, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Basically, we agree that there is nothing wrong with the OCG rulings. However, whatever way Konami rules it in the TCG, they will still contradict themselves. If they rule "Yes, you can do that.", then they wold be contradicting Vanity's Ruler's rulings. If they rule "No, you can't.", then they would be contradicting Bone Temple Block's rulings.

Who comes up with these TCG rulings anyway?-- HHTurtle ^Talk   02:19, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Well, this looks like to be the case! ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 07:09, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'm seriously asking who decides how a scenario should be ruled in the TCG. I've seen a lot of TCG rulings that either contradict the OCG, come up with BKSS rulings that maybe caused by poor translations or have no explanation whatsoever, or contradict themselves. For example, the effect of Trap Reactor・Y FI is ruled as a Spell Speed 1 Trigger Effect in the TCG? How does that make sense?

The OCG doesn't have as many rulings problems as that of the TCG. I don't know. It just feels like the person who dictates rulings in the TCG is unprofessional.-- HHTurtle ^Talk   07:15, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

What I said applies to both _CGs.

Again, "The Shallow Grave" works COMPLETELY differently from "Inferno Reckless Summon". You can't activate "The Shallow Grave" if your opponent's field is full; you can't activate it if the only monster in your opponent's Graveyard is "Ancient Gear Golem". The two are sufficiently different, so there is no reason to apply "The Shallow Grave"'s rulings to "Inferno Reckless Summon".

"Inferno Reckless Summon" has your opponent Special Summon if possible. If your opponent can't Special Summon any monsters (for example the two rulings I referenced in the last paragraph, or vs. Token monsters, or vs. Limited monsters, or vs. "Avatar of Apophis") , then "Inferno Reckless Summon" is perfectly fine with that. It is still considered to resolve properly. If your opponent cannot Special Summon because of "Heat Wave"/"Vanity's Fiend"/etc, then "Inferno Reckless Summon" can still resolve properly.

Also, if "Heat Wave" is in effect, then would you say that you can't activate "Inferno Reckless Summon" if your opponent has "Cyber Harpie Lady" on the field? (Remember, "Harpie Lady" is a Normal Monster.) Or if he has "Harpie Lady" on the field?

The condition of "Ancient Gear Golem" certainly prevents your opponent from Special Summoning it. What else would you call it?

If "Inferno Reckless Summon" works your way, then why can you activate it if your opponent only controls "Ancient Gear Golem"? By your logic, "Large Heat Wave" prevents your opponent from Special Summoning any Effect Monsters, so if your opponent only controls Effect Monsters, then your opponent can't Special Summon anything, so you can't activate "Inferno Reckless Summon". But, the condition of "Ancient Gear Golem" prevents your opponent from Special Summoning any "Ancient Gear Golem"s, so if your opponent only controls "Ancient Gear Golem", then you can still activate "Inferno Reckless Summon"? What?

HHT: No clue. I think that Kevin Tewart once said that he wrote all the UDE TCG ruling, so we can probably blame him.

What you said is probably the correct way, but Vanity's Ruler's ruling makes me have a little doubt! I think that I'll not wait for Heat Wave to be released in TCG to ask the question to Konami, but I'll ask the question with a similar card like Power Filter. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 09:47, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

You should probably also ask about "Barrier Statues vs Inferno Reckless Summon" too.

Kevin Tewart, huh? There's 2 things that I'd like to say about this:

1. I'm really glad that I play OCG.

2. I have always wondered why people don't like Kevin Tewart like when they talk about him on Pojo and when they vandalize the article page about him. Now I'm starting to understand why.-- HHTurtle ^Talk   10:49, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Oups! I already asked the question for Vanity's Ruler and Power Filter only! Barrier Statues should work the same way with Power Filter since both prevent one kind of Special Summons. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 12:45, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

I know that they work the same. It should be a good idea to ask with more examples, in case the give an answer that contradicts a previous known ruling. (I think that this is bound to happen)-- HHTurtle ^Talk   12:48, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

So, we now have the English rulings for Heat Wave, and...it says nothing aout its interaction with IRS. So, what can we surmise from the rulings we do have for it? 66.228.109.2 (talk) 01:43, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Nothing. The TCG rulings don't clarify.

(To everyone from the above discussion, can we not start it up again? Please? I think we all said all we need to say.) --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 05:24, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Bah, I guess I'll have to find out the hard way, by using Tag Force 5 as my guide. I'll see if my mate can whip up a deck based around that combo and see what happens. 66.228.109.2 (talk) 14:28, November 6, 2010 (UTC)