Forum:Should there be a rule to determine who goes first in a Duel?
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Hey, everyone! Montechristo95 and I have been debating the topic of how to decide who goes first in a duel. The debate so far can be seen here under the Deck Masters heading. Basically, he thinks there should be an actual rule for figuring out who goes first. I think that a rule would be a bit much and it should be up to the people dueling to figure it out.
So, please feel free to give your opinion on the matter, and if you think there should be a rule, please take some time to suggest what the rule should be.
Okay, here is how me and my friends used to do it, the plus side of this is that is completly up to luck, and no one argues over "I want to call the coin!!" After we shuffled our decks we would flip them over, and whoiever had the higher card on the bottom got to choose, Spell beats Trap, Monster beats Spell, and whoever has the highest level of Monster would win, if it was a tie, we would look at the next card and so on and so forth... until someone could pick the order. We then re-shuffled our decks and DUEL!--BassNettoHikari2 (talk • contribs) 22:47, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
Just like Skullvarnish said above we were discussing whether or not should a rule be enforced that determines who gets to go first in a duel. Rolling a dice or flipping a coin are far too outdated methods wouldn't you say? Personally I believe that everyone should follow the rule Kaiba used for 1 and only duel right before the semi-finals or the Battle City tournament. For those of you who don't remember the rule goes as follows: Each player chooses a monster card and shows it to his/her opponent. The player whose monster has the higher attack points goes first. BUT the chosen monster cannot be used during the duel. What do you say? Not too bad eh? In any case folks a rule has to be created for this matter; it's far too important to be left to chance... --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 22:51, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I do think there should be an actual rule (although the rulebook says you flip a coin to see who goes first). I agree that a coin is too old fashioned lets come up with something new. However, the one problem with the idea you explained above is that then everyone will add in a DMK/FGD/MPD in their deck so that they can go first, and since they won't use it in a duel, it won't affetc their startegy at all. I think the idea I proposed above could be a good solution.--BassNettoHikari2 (talk • contribs) 23:02, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't know there was a "flip a coin" rule. Geez couldn't they come up with something better? But anyway mate, your way although inspirational relies on chance as well. I say that we eliminate this factor. --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 23:06, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
Well the thing is that, if its not chance, then both players would have to come to a consent on who goes first. And if they both want to then, well you have a problem. I know that if you're in a tournament, than you have matches, so both players will get what they want (although one will only get one if they both want the same thing). Thing is, Yu-Gi-Oh! is a game of chance, anyone can draw a horrible hand, to where they can't do anything (dang, I drew 6 monarchs!!!)... While it would be nice to get rid of chance, I don't think that's possible...--BassNettoHikari2 (talk • contribs) 23:13, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
- It is possible. I admit that chance plays a big role in the game. But what we are talking about here takes place before the beginning of the game. There is therefore no need to strenghten the afore-mentioned luck's role by resorting to it one more time while we can do something alternate for a change. --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 23:19, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
- Again, if two players want to go first (or second), than what happens? Again tournaments slightly deal with this, by alternating who goes first in the second and third round of the match. Even taking card out of your deck is still some luck. That was the point of the post. --BassNettoHikari2 (talk • contribs) 23:24, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
- Okay then, like I said before, I'll just add in a Malefic Paradox Dragon so that way I can just throw it away and I can go first. That would be abused... Your strategy would be safe, and you would get your way...
- If the said card that you show your opponent is taken out of the duel, than even if and it needed perfect balance, it still would be, since the said card would be taken out of the duel, keeping the deck's balance. Or you could even side the said cards...--BassNettoHikari2 (talk • contribs) 23:50, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think the factor of chance can be eliminated, because it's no longer fair at that point. As stated above, everyone would just use a MPD. And then when both players pick that, what next? Make them ditch another card? Skullvarnish (talk • contribs) 23:52, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
- @BassNetoHikari There can be a deck's balance that consists of exactly 40 cards. In that case the player cannot include a wrong card.
- @Skullvarnish Well in that case the two cards could simply be... returned to the deck and they choose another card. --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 23:57, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, but if I have a deck that is already at a disadvantage, I don't want to ditch one of my best cards just to go first. And, what if I were using Fortune Ladies? They all have ? ATK, which is usually treated as 0. Skullvarnish (talk • contribs) 00:07, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- For a guy who doesn't want ot ditch a card he can always give up the first turn to his opponent and skip that whole procedure. As for the fortune ladies I don't really get the question. Since they have 0 ATK the opponent goes first (if he has a stronger monster). Simple as. --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 00:12, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Now if they are returned to the deck, than that's a different story. True, some decks would never go first, possibly ruining their strategy. This new idea would have to be balanced for such decks that don't emphasize attack, but then again, you could ditch a synchro/Fusion Monster, Majestic Red, Five God, or DMK could be shown or thrown away due t their high attacks--BassNettoHikari2 (talk • contribs) 00:16, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- @SkullVarnish Too bad for him then.
- @BassNetoHikari Side Decks could be excluded. --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 00:18, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I'll agree we need a new way...
...but can we think of a way other than yours? Going first can make all the difference and it wouldn't be right to make it so certain decks don't even get the chance. Skullvarnish (talk • contribs) 00:23, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah that's kinda the whole point you know. Blocking the path of OTK decks. But I can't think of another way. --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 00:29, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- As for a new idea what about the idea I proposed earlier, true still luck, but better than some decks never winning, and it would be fair, since a Trap could easily appear on the bottom of a High level deck, and you go first with Treeborn Frog at the bottom, it works fairly, trust me, I dueled like this for well over a year...--BassNettoHikari2 (talk • contribs) 00:31, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- Really do not see the point. Dice/coins aren't outdated. They're accessories used in games, and are completely impartial, as opposed to segregating certain decks with other methods written above just for the sake of "something new."--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 00:32, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- And what happens with OTK decks that only need one turn to win? Wouldn't it be unfair to win a duel based on luck alone? --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 00:34, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- That's why we have ban lists. It doesn't deter OTK decks anyway, it just makes it so that a deck like Fortune Ladies is completely useless against one, as said above. Also, to change a fundamental game mechanic to be so unfair to a certain type of deck is just ridiculous.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 00:36, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- Traditional Format will always be based on luck, regardless. I'd recommend that you just don't play in it. Besides, another thing to consider is that a system where cards in your deck determine who goes first is also a hell of a lot easier to manipulate, as opposed to a completely impartial method like die/coins.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 00:41, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- It's a card game. Of course luck will ALWAYS play an awfully big role in the game. Every card you draw is based completely on luck. That's why people use cards to increase consistency. And "don't play in it" is the blunt answer. Most people who play Advanced Format can see the glaringly obvious flaws in Traditional. If you choose to play Traditional, it's your choice. No point whining about how it's so unfair that a coin flip decides the win, because you're choosing to play in a format where plays like that are rampant. Anyway, individuals can choose to screw with the game in any way they want, including adding bizarre ways to decide the beginning player, but ultimately, the official way is to use a coin flip. I just honestly think that the way you decide the player isn't what's flawed, it's the format/cards themselves.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 00:52, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- I know luck plays a big role in the card game. I'm just saying we should find a way to limit that and change a rule that can be changed. And since Traditional Format has so many flaws it's only logical to try to correct at least one of them. And I wouldn't call it "screwing the rules". It's an alternate way to play the game. --Montechristo95 talk • contribs 00:57, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- "Alternate" a.k.a "not official" a.k.a "made-up." That's screwing around with the rules. Like, deciding that using the original print God Cards is okay, or playing a Tag Duel. None of these things are accommodated for by the official game, hence, it's screwing with the rules. I'm not saying it's a terrible thing. I just mean, in reality, as long as it's not an official event, you can basically play the game any way you want to, unofficially. You're entitled to try to "fix the flaws" if you want. I just personally think it's pointless. But, I've given my two cents, and you're entitled to yours too, so whatevs.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 01:02, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
If you have a big issue over coin flips or who gets to call, just play Rock-Paper-Scissors for the first move. Simple as that! For subsequent Duels using the same players, the loser of the previous Duel will get to choose which player begins the next round. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 01:00, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- Not fully. It's a little bit of a mind game on whether the opponent will be picking one of the hand signs. Many people would choose to go with rock to immediately crush the people who pick scissors first out of habit, while others would try paper to catch those people who exercise this method of thought. Then you have your opponent also thinking the same. There's more to Rock-Paper-Scissors than just "luck", because you can't exactly pick a hand symbol "at random", right? --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 01:11, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- I have a feeling Monte would pull the "that's relying on luck" argument on this one again. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 01:21, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah but there is no other way of doing it besides luck. We don't want to reveal our skills otherwise it would be bad. There is no way of deciding who goes first. What next thing you know, we do I Spy or something? Jeez for Pete's sake, it's the first turn. So what if someone get advantage first, you are going to have an advantage on a few turns. The point is that it doesn't matter who goes first, they just want to play the card game. Come on chess and other games don't do that. Just leave it be. Fallensilence (talk • contribs) 01:24, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
In the NFL (National Football League), whoever starts off with ball possession is a huge deal as well, how do they determine who starts off with ball possession? They flip a flippin' coin. If it works for a sport as big as Football without teams complaining about it being "old-fashioned", or "relying on luck", or "messing with their strategy", then I think it should work fine for dueling. Yes, this relies on luck/chance, but chance is impartial and completely fair, you and your opponent have a 50/50 shot of going first. If you don't go first, who cares? Suck it up. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 00:17, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
The Best Way To Decide Who Go First
Well, you would first have to play duel, and the winner of that duel would go first in the next duel.02:22, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Some people play by revealing the bottom card of their deck (I know I do). The card with the highest stars gets to choose if he/she wants to go first or second. Then, of course, the loser of the duel (if playing a Match) gets to decide if he/she wants to go first or second. Here are the rules for such a way:
- A Spell/Trap counts as 0 stars.
- If both players have the same number of stars (yes that includes s/ts), then you reveal your second last card, as so on so on. That's the best way to me.---DED((Here's my page of messages and the such) 04:18, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
What happened to rock paper scissors/flip a coin/roll a die? Anyway, I usually just voluntarily give it to my opponent, or the other way around. The bottom of the Deck usually works, though it can be unfair is someone's stacking or playing a Yubel/Gallis the Star Beast Deck, so yeah.
04:26, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Wow, I had no idea this forum would attract so much attention!
Personally, after reading all of the comments, I feel that the luck aspect needs to stay. It's only fair if there's a luck aspect. But, if someone doesn't want to flip a coin, they should be able to choose a way to decide as long as both players agree on a way and agree it's fair. Skullvarnish (talk • contribs) 19:55, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
A great idea would be to do a rock paper scissors with the card on the bottom of your deck. Since rock paper scissors operates around three possibilities and there are three types of card in yugioh a monster card could be rock a spell card could be paper and a trap card could be scissors. In the event of a tie, you would re-cut your opponents deck and proceed accordingly. Silvah777 (talk • contribs) 19:27, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
The problems I see with both suggestions:
- Turning over cards to decide who wins: Reveals deck builds. Especially with spells and traps both counting as 0. Most decks consist are made up of half trap\spell cards.
- Removing a high level monster from the game: Deck thinning is desirable. Not only would this allow people to start with 39 cards instead of 40, but they'd just throw in a high level monster, like "Malefic Truth Dragon" or "Yubel - The Ultimate Nightmare" for the sole purpose of going first.
^wasn't me. Here's my idea: both players count up how many cards that are megabanned (meaning, how many cards in their Deck that are semi limited, limited, or forbidden), and whoever has the most goes second. Only one copy of a card is counted, for example: If I have two Bottomless Trap Holes, I'll count it as 1 for my megabanned list because it's only 1 card. If both are equal, both players count how many limited/semi-limited cards they have, this time counting multiples. If that count is the same, then resort it however they wish. This encourages duelists to know the banlist :P
At my locals we do the next thing: We cut our decks and show each other the card that shows on the upper half of the deck (in other words we show each other a random card in the deck) then the player showing the card with the most stars goes first,then we just put togheter our decks and draw our hand, if is a tie or no player showed a monster, we do it again. It's actually very quick simple. HouseholdCatDeity (talk • contribs) 03:16, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
So is the way i described. Konami doesn't give us a die. Konami doesn't give us a coin. If you want to play yugioh, then use what you have. That's why doing either my idea or HouseholdCatDeity's is the best and simplist way..---184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:23, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
When going to a tournament, both players should bring the items needed: a six-sided Die, a two-sided coin, items for counters, tokens, Side Decks, and the registration needed for the tournament. --Drew-Gi-Oh! (talk) 03:50, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
- Don't forget calculators to track LP. Against combat-oriented or stall Decks, it's not too big an issue if you have good memory. Against burn decks, every single point counts. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 04:55, August 30, 2010 (UTC)