Talk:Heavy Metal King

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Like REBMD and Metalzoa

Why are people insistant that this was an actual card that is Summoned like "Metalzoa" and "Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon"? There was no in-show evidence to back that up. Justing listing its effect "When this card attacks, this card gains ATK equal to half of the ATK of its attack target." and stating that it was "Musician King" affected by "Metalmorph" covers exactly what we were shown in the show and contains no guesses. It's really just "Musician King" equipped with "Metalmorph". the only thing is they gave it a name. Even if that is wrong, using the above doesn't necessarily imply that it is.

However to say it was a card like "REBMD" and "Metalzoa" introduces the following problems:

• Mainly, it was never stated to be.
• Johnny would have Summoned it during Yugi's turn. This cannot be done with "REBMD" and "Metalzoa". (Also it would have caused a replay, but the anime tends to ignore rules like this).
• When it didn't destroy "Dark Magician", Yugi explained that "Metalmorph" only raises the equipped monster's ATK while its attacking, suggesting it was still a monster equipped with "Metalmorph".

-- Deltaneos (talk) 10:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

• REBMD and Metalzoa were never "stated to be" either.
• Again, the anime ignored these rules in Metalmorph's previous appearance.
• Probably referring to the fact that that's basically what the Heavy Metal King card is -- Musician King with more ATK and Metalmorph's effect. Again, I'm pretty sure this happened during Keith and Jonouchi's duel. —This unsigned comment was made by 70.138.173.160 (talk • contribs) 06:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

"Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon" and "Metalzoa" have been stated to be real cards. It says it on their real life cards. However in the manga and anime "Metalzoa" and "REBMD" were not originally actual cards. Why would Joey have even had a "Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon" card in his Deck? It's the same case with "Thousand Dragon" and "Dark Sage". They were not actual cards when they first appeared. They were "Baby Dragon" and "Dark Magician" affected by "Time Wizard". In the OCG they made them seperate cards to make them more compatable with the rules. (I know the anime did show a "Metalzoa" card in Keith's flashbacks, but that was because the anime had been made after the OCG cards had been made. Same with them making "Time Wizard" and "Copycat" monsters, although they used them as Spell Cards.)

It ignored those rules in "Metalmorph's" previous appearance because it wasn't Summoning monsters from the Deck back then either. As I said above "REBMD" and "Metalzoa" were not originally seperate cards either.

Since "Heavy Metal King" has not been released as a real card or a video game card, we must document how it worked in the anime/manga, rather than approximate "if they made this a real card, it would probably work like this...".

How could the last point have happened in Joey and Keith's Duel? "Metalmorph" didn't give them the ATK increasing effect. -- Deltaneos (talk) 09:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Regarding this edit summary. They have done it plenty of times. Not always by equipping cards to a monster, but applying other effects to it. Including all of the following; "Harpie Lady Sisters", "Thousand Dragon", "Gate Guardian", "Dark Sage", the Toons and the Legendary Dragon combinations. Although all that have been released in the OCG have been changed. Some (such as the Toons and "Gate Guardian") have been changed at later points in the anime. -- Deltaneos (talk) 09:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

All of those are real cards. Heavy Metal King should be no exception. The point is that this **is** how it worked in the anime/manga, to the best of our knowledge. What we know:

• Heavy Metal King is a separate monster.
• It was placed on the Field somehow when Musician King was equipped with Metalmorph.
• It has the effect of Metalmorph.

We are able to make plenty of similar assumptions in other articles, such as Guardian Dreadscythe, who we approximate is a Nomi monster summoned from the hand or Deck despite the fact that none of these were actually said in its appearance. Why? Because it's obvious. 70.138.173.160

They were not real cards when they first appeared. "Gate Guardian" was "Suijin", "Kazejin" and "Sanga of the Thunder" defending each other. The Legendary Dragon combinations couldn't have been seperate cards in Yugi, Joey and Kaiba's Decks. Why would they have had cards couldn't have been Summoned/activated except by the effect of a card they hadn't heard of, which coincidentially are given to them later?

"Hevy Metal King" is different than "Dark Sage", the toons etc, because it hasn't been made a real card since. So we can only document it as it appeared. Calling it a card for the sake of it is was real it might work like this is pure fanon.

I think Raphael actually said he was Summoning another monster, whiel "Eatos" remained in the Graveyard, before he played "Guardian Dreadscythe" and we know it was a seperate card than "Guardian Eatos" as they both appeared on the field at once. "Eatos" text is actually visible in the anime, so it should be possible to check how "Dreadscythe" is Summoned by reading that.

Out of the bullets you've listed, how do you know the first 2? He did not say he was Summoning a new monster. After the "transformation", he said "Metalmorph" doesn't only increases the ATK, implying "Metalmorph" was still active and we have yet to see its other effect. When Yugi attacked it with "Dark Magician", Johnny said Have you forgotten? I've got "Metalmorph", which is even more of an implication that it's still in play. "Dark Magician" defeats it and he asks Why didn't Metalmorph work?

And what is wrong with this revision (ignoring the line at the very top)? What's listed in the lore; When this card attacks, this card gains ATK equal to half of the ATK of its attack target. is true. The description This is "Musician King" affected by "Metalmorph". is true. Whether it was "Musician King" equipped with "Metalmorph" or Summoned by Tributing "Musician King" equipped with "Metalmorph", it's safe to say it was "affected" by "Metalmorph". It allows for both theories and doesn't induce a guess. -- Deltaneos (talk) 19:03, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The logical basis of the first two bullets is that nowhere else has anyone been able to simply change the name of their monster by equipping it with something. Basic Insect equipped with Insect Armor with Laser Cannon is still Basic Insect. Flame Swordsman equipped with Salamandra is still Flame Swordsman. Dark Magician equipped with Magical Formula is still Dark Magician, and you get the point. And I think, if we accept that HMK is a separate monster, Johnny's line about "I still have Metalmorph" would be referring to the fact that even if the King is a separate monster, he's still "Musician King" reinforced with "Metalmorph," gaining the powers of the latter. There's nothing wrong with the descriptive line, but it can be summed up like it is now much more effectively and professionally. —This unsigned comment was made by 70.138.173.160 (talk • contribs) 07:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a bit of a special case because classifying it as a nomi monster like Metalzoa and REBMD makes obvious logical sense. I wish I could write a ten-page hypothesis with arguments and contentions, but it is really as simple as that. Just as we know Doom Virus Dragon to be a DARK Dragon, as we know Dragon Nails to be an Equip Spell (despite the fact that the card art displayed shows it as a normal spell) we know Heavy Metal King to be a separate monster, given established canon rules and traditions. 70.138.173.160

Yes they have changed something name after equipping it. "Super Vehicroid - Rex Union" was "Super Vehicroid - Stealth Union" equipped with "Super Conductor Tyranno". So have REBMD and "Metalzoa". They were changed after being made real cards. If this was to be made a real card, they'd obviously change it too, but they haven't so we note it as it appears. Same as how, we don't change all the articles for Dark Synchro Monsters that haven't been released to say that they are Synchro Monsters.

They made plenty of cases where combining cards, not necessarily by equipping one card to another, they formed something new, which they gave a name, which was not an actual card. In the manga, when Yugi and Joey Summoned "Black Skull Dragon", it stood on top of the "Red-Eyes Black Dragon" and "Summoned Skull" cards. And when Kaiba Summoned "Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon", it took up 4 zones (The 3 "Blue-Eyes" and "Polymerization".) Using the rules for that Duel Disk, players had to draw until they had 5 cards and couldn't have more than 5. Kaiba ended-up stuck not able to draw cards, because when he had "Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon", the 3 "Blue-Eyes Whiet Dragon" and "Polymerization" were still in play. "Negate Attack" was his fifth card. He said himself that he was unable to draw, because they were taking up his 5 zones.

If you give me a 10 page hypothesis, I'll give you a 20 page one stating otherwise.

Canon rules and traditions? Canon to the TCG or canon to the manga? At the beginning of the manga, there was no such thing as a Fusion/Extra Deck and there were no monsters, who had to be Special Summoned from the Deck, by having cards on the field meet certain conditions. Those concepts were introduced when they made the OCG, so that things like Fusion Monsters and "Dark Sage" could exist as real cards. I don't think they even introduced the concept of a Fusion Deck in the anime or manga until Yu-Gi-Oh! GX. -- -- Deltaneos (talk) 17:40, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

K, prove this is one of those cases. Oh, and "Black Skull Dragon" and "Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon" were and are actual cards in the TCG at the time, just by the way.

Canon to the relationship between the two, as in we can accurately translate "X" weird, vague effect from Duelist Kingdom into "Y" appropriate TCG effect for the purposes of these pages, like we do with, say, Legend of Heart, despite the fact that the Legendary Knights weren't actually stated to come from the Deck. 70.138.173.160

You haven't proven that it was a card. Your argument is they don't give names to things unless they are seperate cards themselves, so it can be infered that this was a card. I've proven that that is wrong, they do give names to monsters in such cases. So there is no basis for including the "This card can only be Special Summoned from the Deck by Tributing "Musician King" equipped with "Metalmorph" line. The version I've been saying we use includes no guesses. I even compromised leaving out the "This is not an actual card" line. So it would just include the effect "When this card attacks, this card gains ATK equal to half of the ATK of its attack target" and the description would say "This was "Musician King" affected by "Metalmorph"". That includes only details we were shown, has no guesses and doesn't outrule the possibility of being a card that was Summoned from the Deck.

And no, "Black Skull Dragon" and "Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon" appeared in the manga, before the TCG even existed.

In that case "Legend of Heart's" page should be changed to how it was perceived in the anime. Why should we make-up our own rules for the card? This isn't a site for people to post original content.

The complete "Exodia". In the anime and manga, that's been treated a monster (named, given an ATK, DEF, could attack, could inflict Battle Damage), but it clearly wasn't a monster that was Summoned from Yugi's Deck after he had the 5 pieces in his hand. -- Deltaneos (talk) 15:47, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Showing that Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon and Black Skull Dragon followed weird fusion rules during their introduction is not proving that they don't give names to things that aren't separate cards. And because you're the one advocating we change the status quo, i.e. inferring that it's a card, the burden of proof lies upon you before you can rightfully say that we ought use your version.

Why not leave out the "from the Deck" line, which seems to be what you're harping on, and just say "it can only be Summoned by Tributing Musician King equipped with Metalmorph," instead of sticking a bunch of notes in the article? Or, in the "appearances" section, we could state that this monster was the result of equipping Metalmorph to Musician King, and scrap the "this card can only be summoned..." line from the main article entirely. 70.138.173.160

For the hell of it, I also agree that the existence of this card is purely speculative. If Musician King was tributed, the equipped Metalmorph would be destroyed. Previously, the "metal monsters" were made with Magic Metal Force, and did not use the real life effect. The fact that they used the TCG Metalmorph and its effect here shows that they shouldn't be treated as the same. The summoning conditions listed are just guesses, and the part about raising the attack is explicitly said to be from Metalmorph, NOT the monster itself. -SlashMan (talk • contribs) 19:48, January 16, 2014 (UTC)