Talk:Machina Gadget

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Request

As per Wilimut's request, I have created this page to discuss whether Cyber Dragon should be listed as a recommended card for Machina Gadget Decks. I belive it should, for the following reasons: I have main decked 3 CyDra in my Machina Gadgets for a long time now, and I think it runs very well when used correctly. At the most recent YCS, 23 of the top 32 duelists had 2 Cyber Dragons in their Side Deck, while a 24th duelist had 1. If 75% of YCS tops are using a card, even if only side decked, I think that's a very strong case for the card being good. He serves as a universal beatstick, is able to attack over just about everything that can be Normal Summoned, and is often sufficient bait for Bottomless Trap Hole (even though Bottomless has been seeing a decline in play), Torrential Tribute, Thunder King Rai-Oh, and more recently, Solemn Warning. After drawing out those cards, it is much safer to drop Machina Fortress, the deck's main powerhouse. Even if it is not used as bait, Cyber Dragon is an excellent beatstick by himself. It is a wonderful card to have in mirror match, or against any Machine-heavy deck. Machina Gadget decks can also take advantage of Cyber Dragon being a Machine-type, using him as Fortress fodder or powering him up in Solidarity builds. All in all, I strongly support Cyber Dragon being listed as a recommended card. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 00:46, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to declined this idea, as the deck building itself is an experience, not a strategy. But by through Lappy's point of view, I would just allow the name to be listed there just for strategy and possible to be an extra knowledge of how to experience the deck with "Cydra" included here and there. --FredCat 01:03, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

I believe that Machina Gadgets are one of the decks capable of using Cyber Dragon to the fullest, and I believe that Cyber Dragon allows MG players to more consistently draw a useable beatstick, allowing them to get over cards like Snowman Eater and attacking over other monsters, allowing the conservation of Traps for more troublesome monsters. For example, using Cyber Dragon to attack over a monster such as Blackwing - Sirocco the Dawn is really a free monster destruction, and lets Machina Gadget users save their Traps for monsters like Blackwing Armor Master. Not every build needs to use Cyber Dragon, that's true, but it is certainly a card worth consideration when building the deck. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 01:13, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

• Lappy brought up a very good point. Most decks at any major YCS side Cyber Dragon. So, that leads to the question, "Why do they side Cyber Dragon?" I believe the answer is found in the Chimeratech Fortress Dragon that resides predominantly in extra decks, and occasionally in sides. People side CyDra against Machine decks. Now, this by itself isn't a damning fact. Many decks do in fact run cards that are sided against them. However, Gadget decks are based largely on gaining card advantages by means of consistent +1s from Gadgets, and keeping one's opponent at low advantage by forcing one for one exchanges. Ending with a CyDra on the field while in control of any other machine type monster will result in one's opponent using those monsters as material for Chimeratech Fortress Dragon. If one simply creates their own Chimeratech before ending their turn, they have a -1. Now, Lappy brought up the fact that CyDra is commonly used to bait cards like Bottomless and Warning. While Warning occasionally pose some minor threat, Gadgets don't really care about Bottomless. Even on a Solidarity boosted Gadget, they've still made a one for one exchange, and they've gotten their search; an almost optimal situation. TKRO is the notorious bane of Gadget decks everywhere. Lappmy mentioned the fact that CyDra can force a negation from it. What he neglected to mention was that several commonly used cards in Gadget decks achieve the same end (Doomcaliber Knight, Fissure, Smashing Ground, Dimensional Prison, and Blackwing - Gale the Whirlwind to name a few) without leaving a Gadget player open to Chimeratech Fortress Dragon. Lappy also brings up Snowman Eater, a card completely irrelevant to the metagame (the only deck that occasionally runs it is Miracle Beat, and the vast majority opt to use Penguin Soldier instead) and one only an idiot would side in against Gadgets, as the last thing one wants against a Gadget deck is easy one for one exchanges. Lappy also mentions big monsters (I'm going to completely ignore the fact that he chose Blackwings, a deck that very rarely sees competitive play anymore, for his example). As it turns out, the idea of running all of the one for one exchange cards Gadgets are famous for, like Smashing Ground, Dimensional Prison, and Bottomless Trap Hole, is to eliminate the large monsters (Ones that require their owner to give up advantage to summon) that currently dominate the metagame. I personally think Lappy's experience with the deck is irrelevant, and would like to point out that while Gadget decks have topped YCSs this format, none of them have mained Cyber Dragon

• TL;DR: CyDra in Machina Gadgets is bad Yugimanz

• Nobody- (talk • contribs) 00:59, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, no need to call it bad, it's just a card that could help the n00b and newbs, like Lappy had once mentioned, it can help cream down the Special Summon perverts or high attacker before give you some open to punch your opponent's face. Though it's suck, it still deserve a spot. --FredCat 01:03, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, if you put yourself in a situation where you need to Chimeratech or be Chimeratech'd, you're playing the deck wrong. Also, I'm aware that Snowman Eater and Blackwings are bad examples, I was having a brain fart and couldn't think of anything else. On the point that Gadgets use one for ones to take care of monsters, I would like to point out that Gadgets are slow, and if they run out of Traps they're in a very bad spot. Even a LSS - Kizan could control the field at that point. Once you play Cyber Dragon though, you get free plusses off of running over weaker monsters, and the opponent has to step up their game to regain control of the field. Kizan isn't going to cut it anymore, they need to step up their game to Shi En or something similar. And when they do, THAT'S when you play the one for ones that Gadgets rely on. If you have to use your Traps on the little stuff, you're screwed once the big stuff comes out. As for YCS tops, there has been 1 Machina Gadget top over the past 3 YCSs, which is hardly enough to say that because one guy didn't main them, they're bad. Before that there were 2 at Dallas, where one mained one Cyber Dragon and sided 2, while the other mained 2. You can say top players don't main CyDra in Machina Gadgets, but the simple fact is that Machina Gadgets don't top. Their YCS record shouldn't have anything to do with Cyber Dragon being recommended or not. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 01:23, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

For some reason, I like your respond just in this situation. But I think you're right, as of my Machina Deck (without Cyber Dragon and without Extra Deck) only made to top 5, placed third. It's because of repeat summon of "Machina Fortress" himself. --FredCat 01:26, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Saying that gadget decks don't top is not a good argument in favor of deleting CyDra from the recommended cards because then, we shouldn't have recommended cards for decks like Exodia or Elemental Heroes neither. It's not because a deck doesn't top at a YCS that people canno't have fun with it. Please don't forget that YuGiOh is not only a high level/Competition game, it's also very fun at home with a few friends and here, in the wiki, we consider helping any kind of player and I believe that CyDra is a fun card to play for fun in this deck. Wilimut ^Talk_Mail Paris, 09:18, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

As our french-friend here has a good point about the game. This site is for general games, not for pro-players. If you want a pro-player only site, then go make your own wiki there and let's see if it can survive without Cydra. --FredCat 09:38, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Uh, I'm the one arguing IN FAVOR of having Cyber Dragon listed... Saying that they don't top YCS's was a counter-argument to Nobody's only argument that he ever uses. I feel safe saying that here because I know he'll just TL;DR if I make this long enough. Honestly, I think if someone mained a Thousand Eyes Idol and won with it he'd start arguing that Idol is a good card and all decks should run it. Seriously, just because a certain build topped doesn't make it better than every other build out there. It just means the person running it was a good player and had good luck. And then just because they're a good player doesn't mean they can build the deck perfectly. A lot of deck-building is personal preference, and there is no "perfect" or "best" build of ANY deck. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 19:03, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

• Just thought I'd bring up something here - while whether or not a perfect build can be achieved is arguable, the reason why Nobody- uses the points that he makes is because of their success. It's very easy to dismiss any argument in this sort of context with "Well, it might have just been luck." but it's a cop-out argument. The proof is in the evidence - that build had success. You can call it luck, but that's just your opinion. You have no solid evidence yourself, but there is evidence in favor of the other side. If you want to top with a Cyber Dragon filled Machina Gadget deck to disprove that, feel free to, but until then, you don't have much basis for a counter-argument. A valid argument is that the Wiki isn't designed around competitive play solely, and it shouldn't cater exclusively to that side of the game, but I don't believe it should be ignored either. People may play for fun, but allowing people to be ignorant of the game is why this Wiki has a bad reputation.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 19:36, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Bad rep? Sounds more like being butthurt to me. All Decks run on luck. Given the wrong cards drawn, any serious Deck can be beaten by any other serious Deck, player skill not withstanding. In the wake of the Konami/UDE fiasco, this is now the most up-to-date and comprehensive database of Yu-Gi-Oh! on the internet accessible to the general public. I think I'll take some "Bad Reputation" for this tool being here. If you don't like it, go away, and quit bitching about it here.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:48, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

• Any opinion you don't like should be treated with hostility, right? You've been away for a while, so let me update you - while the Wiki is definitely an incredible source for factual information, and, like you said, a comprehensive database of Yu-Gi-Oh!, it is in no means a good educator. In fact, due to the freely editable nature of the articles on this site, it's overrun by horrible strategies. I wouldn't spend my time editing it if I had anything against the factual information here, but it is definitely not one of the best places to find good players.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 19:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Whether a build was successful with or without a certain card does not make that card any better or worse. Nearly twice as many people ran Dust Tornado as Mind Control at the last YCS. Does that mean Dust Tornado is better than Mind Control? Certainly not. Mind Control has been Limited for a while, Dust Tornado has never been touched. There's more success with Dust Tornado than Mind Control; therefore, by your argument, Dust Tornado should be Limited and Mind Control should be Unlimited, because Dust is clearly a better card, since it had more success. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 01:59, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

When a deck type that generally tops runs a limited set of cards, it's safe to assume those are most likely effective choices for that deck. The fact that no Gadget deck running CyDra has topped a YCS in recent years is a side-note. The fact is that CyDra is basically an automatic -1, something Gadgets should strive to avoid. You still haven't come up with an adequate counter-argument for that. Also, I agree with the statement "if you put yourself in a situation where you need to Chimeratech or be Chimeratech'd, you're playing the deck wrong." If you're playing CyDra, you will need to put yourself in such a situation to play it. If you're playing CyDra, you're playing the deck wrong.

Nobody- (talk • contribs) 00:17, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

I run 3 CyDra and have never had to self-Chimeratech. I've been playing the deck for over a year. If you think it's an unavoidable move, you're an idiot. Summoning CyDra requires an empty field. Wait, here's a revolutionary idea: don't summon another monster. It's as simple as that. Cyber Dragon is in no way a -1. You use it to control the field by itself. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 00:58, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

Man, you know what I hate in advantage based decks? Free +1s. Like the type Gadgets receive from normal summoning every turn. Man, the idea that you don't want to get +1's every turn to win on advantage is really revolutionary. As is the idea that you can hold down the field, and prevent your opponent from establishing field presence and killing you, with what is essentially a 2100 vanilla. Stop the presses, people should start running TKRO in Gadgets. I mena, why not? It's better at holding field down than CyDra, and it doesn't hurt you as long as it's by itself. The fact is, that's stupid, which holds certain similarities to the cognitive faculties you've demonstrated.

Nobody- (talk • contribs) 02:31, June 8, 2011 (UTC)

"Advantage-based decks" hardly gain advantage when they need to D Prison a 1500+ monster just to stay in the game, only to get raped when the opponent drops Stardust next turn. You're really going to miss that beatstick when the opponent summons Reborn Tengu. Your one for ones just became minuses. Good luck after that happens. Wait, let me minus myself to summon Fortress instead! Oh, you have Warning? Damn. Now I'm stuck with these Gadgets. But that doesn't matter, I can plus one by getting another useless Gadget! Hooray, I'm... still screwed. If you have any shred of intelligence, then you'll be able to see that Cyber Dragon is not a minus one. It is a either one for one or a beatstick. The name of the game these days is options. The more you have, the better off you are. People don't like seeing Cyber Dragon, so they use resources to get rid of it. That's a one for one. Either that or you run something over. That's a plus one. But wait, you hate free plus ones in advantage based decks. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 19:14, June 8, 2011 (UTC)

Advantage-based decks are all about D-Prisoning 1500+ attack monsters. And,Stardust fears both D Prison and Machina Fortress. Oh, by the way, Machina Fortress and Gearframe both crush most monster. Gadgets aren't useless, especially not when you get your opponent to low advantage(Pssst, here's a hint, it's what the deck is supposed to do) Your suggestion of sending Cyber Dragon out alone and just keeping it there is laughable. If you plan on using CyDra to hold down the field, you're an idiot. CyDra isn't like DCK or TKRO in that it doesn't have an effect to prevent big plays, it's basically just a 2100 vanilla. And, on the subject, if you're going to run CyDra, why not TKRO? You'd be forced to do the same thing. The fact is shutting down your own engine is both stupid and suicidal. Lets not forget the fact that every turn you keep CyDra out is a missed opportunity for a +1. And in terms of things that force plays, CyDra isn't high up on the list.

Nobody- (talk • contribs) 06:12, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

You talk as though Cyber Dragon is just a vanilla. Here's a list of things Cyber Dragon can do that TKRO can't, and it's not even a complete list. It gets rid of TKRO and Doomcal, both of which are troublesome for Gadgets. It's gets over Descendant and Recruiter when they're powered up by Necrovalley, meaning you don't have to set Traps just to watch Descendant blow them up. It gets over the 2000 ATK Chimeratech they just dropped. A number of Machine-Types made a top 32 appearance at the last YCS. Chimeratech says hi, and if that's not a plus, I don't know what is. Cyber Dragon is Machine-Type, meaning it doesn't kill Solidarity. And before you say Solidarity isn't viable, the last legitimate Machina Gadget top, at YCS Dallas, ran 2.

You seem to be forgetting that monsters these days really don't last long. Cyber Dragon typically lasts a turn, if that. You really don't miss an opportunity to +1 by playing it. And if you think Cyber Dragon doesn't draw out Traps, you're an idiot. I've seen so many good players use Warning or D Prison on Cyber Dragon, because they had to. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 16:22, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

Hello! Just so you know, I added a couple of new Xyz Monsters on the Extra Deck list, which are Digvorzhak, King of Heavy Industry, and Wind-Up Arsenal Zenmaioh. I know I should talked about it here first (or at least NOW I know), but these cards prove only beneficial to the Machina Gadget deck, without question. --NickTheForbiddenOne (talk • contribs) 14:42, October 17, 2012 (UTC)