Talk:Unclassified effect

This is the talk page for discussing the page, Unclassified effect.
This page is for discussing how to improve the page. For general discussion and comments, use the general discussion forum. To ask about rulings or how cards work, use the ruling queries forum. To get help with building a Deck, use the Deck help forum. Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.	Please try to Be polite Assume good faith Be welcoming

Unclassified

This should be merged with the negatable conditions from the Condition Effect page. This article treats it as only the effects of Pollux, Castor, etc, are unclassified, when there are a lot more. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 21:14, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

We don't even know if they are going to make this a "condition effect". The article's first sentence also highlights that this term is only meant to apply to 1 particular effect/condition/sentence thingy. Giving it any other name or moving it to Condition Effect implies bias, and provides misinformation. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 21:18, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Of course, that was before you added in all that content... *sigh*. Just wait for another person to provide input. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 21:19, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

No, this has been confirmed on DN. What we list as "negatable conditions" is something Atem or someone else made up. However, listing it as a condition is kind of ambiguous (since conditions aren't supposed to be negated), so saying they're unclassified is much easier. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 21:21, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

The point of all this was to make a unique page for that "Normal Summon" effect. We didn't intend for it to be shared with other "unknown" effects, even if the page name looks like a blanket term; we thought the first sentence would have pointed that out. Do you have any suggestions for a neutral, non-biased name for that Normal Summon effect, then? This is only if you want all those other "unknown" effects to remain listed on this page. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 21:25, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the need for a specific page, though. They're not that notable. The only thing they have in common is that their effects last for the whole turn in which a specific trigger is met - usually that same monster's Normal Summon - and they don't care what happens after that trigger. Also, the negatable conditions should be removed from the Condition page. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 01:07, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

We want to display the effect type for monsters that have that effect, no? The only other option is wiping the effect type for those monsters to avoid confusion. Placing this particular unknown effect's definition in a page such as "Continuous effect" or "Condition" means that we would have to link to that page from the monster's effect type(s). And that would give the false impression that the effect is exactly defined as a Continuous effect or Condition, especially for the viewers who don't click on the page link in the effect types category. (The other unknown effect types are not a priority as of now. The reason for emphasis on this particular effect is because Konami has publicly put light on this issue.)

On a side note, I disagree with you placing the effect as "Effects that place a Condition on the field". That may be suitable for describing what the effect functions like, but not suitable for actually defining the effect, since Konami hasn't stated as such. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 01:30, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I just want to go with Unclassified. That answers all the problems. And why aren't the other effect types a priority? They also cause confusion being listed as conditions. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 01:54, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

If you want to list that effect specifically as something else, that's fine. I'm more concerned about deleting the whole part about negatable conditions, which isn't recognized by the rest of the community. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 01:57, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

How about "Unknown Effect" then for the other "conditions" that can be negated? --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 03:21, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

No, these are definitely the ones that should be "unclassified," since that's what they're officially known as, but you can use that for the Normal Summon ones. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 11:13, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

How is that an official term? I randomly chose "Unclassified" for the article name because it seemed fitting. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 17:46, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Tch, I'm okay with switching the two terms if that settles the matter. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 17:51, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

It says that "these are officially known as 'this effect has no classification' effects." Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 18:53, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

So can I start changing the effect types now? Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 19:45, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

Assuming you separate the "extra Normal Summon condition/effect" from the other unknowns, yes. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 19:47, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

You can create a separate page for them, but all of these effects are Unclassified, so there's no reason to list them specifically as another kind of effect on card pages. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 19:58, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

Then no, don't start that yet. You are the only one who seems to be taking this line of thought. More discussion is clearly needed. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 00:39, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

As I said, we are the only community that do this. There is no such thing as "conditions that can be negated." If you don't believe me, then talk to some admins on DN. Simple Guillotine (talk • contribs) 16:12, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

I think something is wrong here, why Pollux and Castor's effects are under this Unclassified category now? Their effects are Continuous, not Conditions, they are negable as long as you do it before they are sucefully Summoned, so, they do have an official classification. (Dr. RED (talk • contribs) 00:19, December 12, 2013 (UTC))

It has been confirmed by Ruling Gurus that they are indeed unclassified. Unclassified Effects are not conditions, but they aren't Continuous either. Rupture Requiem (talk • contribs) 01:09, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

I don't really know what that term stands for, but I guess you are talking about the Konami article where it was stated that Castor, Pollux, Dverg, Dodger Dragon and Blizzard Princess have an unique effect that's not really continuous. Konami undertook to give those effects a proper name, though I don't remember ever seeing something about it. (Dr. RED (talk • contribs) 02:56, December 12, 2013 (UTC))

Some monsters don't seem to belong

There are a few monsters listed here whose effects seem to fit conventional classifications (based on their rulings). Since these kind of effects are quite tricky, I figured I would bring them up on the talk page first rather than just changing them.

• "Destiny HERO - Departed"'s banish it instead effect only applies while in the hand or Main Deck. Unless you can negate this effect in the Deck with "Grave Protector" + "Dark Ruler Ha Des" (which not only do I doubt, but we don't have a ruling on anyway), it looks exactly like a condition. Based on rulings for cards like "Plaguespreader Zombie" which have similar wording, it would be a condition and not negated by "Dark Ruler Ha Des".
• The destroy this card instead effect of Union Monsters looks just like a Continuous Effect. It can be negated and only applies while the Union Monster is face-up on the field.
• Match Winners only apply while face-up on the field, and would be either a condition or Continuous Effect, depending on whether or not they can be negated. Since "Victory Dragon" is the only Legal one (although it is Forbidden anyway), it would be the only one that would receive rulings, and it says nothing about whether the Match Winner effect can be negated (I would guess that it can't, but it could go either way).
• "Tuningware" only applies on the field and can be negated, so looks exactly like a Continuous Effect. It has been specifically ruled to not be able to treat itself as a Level 2 monster if used in the hand by "Eccentric Boy".
• I'm not sure how you would use "Road Synchron" anywhere but face-up on the field, and there are no rulings concerning this. "Eccentric Boy" can only use one other Synchro Material Monster, so it can't be used for double Tuning. Regardless, since there is no ruling about how it behaves off the field, I think it would be best to assume it works like "Tuningware" in any theoretical case where it could be used as a Synchro Material off the field. It can be negated, so it certainly looks like a Continuous Effect.

--SnorlaxMonster 13:48, February 11, 2014 (UTC)