User talk:Dinoguy1000/Archive/2014/05

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Bug with Category:Konami's Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters cards

Hey man! I've noticed a little bug on the main page of the wiki. It says that we have 19 Duel Monster cards in the wiki when we actually have 20. When you look at this, you will see that it misses Ryu-Kishin (collector's card) and that is why on the main page it says 19 instead of 20. Problem is, I don't see where that problem comes from! Everything seems normal on Ryu-Kishin's page... Any idea? --Wilimut TalkMail Paris, 20:02, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to go with "cache error" on this one, since it looks like everything's corrected itself since you posted. =) ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 22:34, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

To elaborate; for problems like that, the solution is usually one of the following:

  • Edit the page that's being excluded. A null edit is fine.
  • Add "?action=purge" to the end of the URL of the page where it's not appearing. Administrators, using the Monobook skin, can do this automatically by clicking the "refresh" tab.
  • Both of the above.
  • Leave it alone until the cache or job queue clears.

-- Deltaneos (talk) 22:41, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Well I did not touch anything to those pages so I understand that there can be a problem of cache when we newly add a category or any information to a page but for this example where no one touched those pages for months, it was still a cache problem...
Anyway, here's another question in the same vein. How cards are automatically added to this page? I thought we needed to add the eds_set in the card page but some of the cards in the list don't have this information and are still in it. --Wilimut TalkMail Paris, 10:01, May 5, 2014 (UTC)
Blame SMW for the caching issue. Its cache is considerably more temperamental than that of MediaWiki itself, and so as a result we occasionally get cache-related problems originating with it and affecting pages that no one's touched for some time. Wikia can't do much to fix it, either, without forking SMW or writing their own semantic markup/querying extension, because the SMW team has already rejected patches submitted by Wikia that would have addressed performance and caching issues.
Aah, that's a bit of a trick question. ^^ If you edit the list, you'll notice that it's the result of a pretty small bit of code. The part we're interested in is the first bit after #ask:, [[Medium::EDS]]. This is the query's selector, and it tells SMW to display all pages that have a value of EDS stored in Property:Medium. But to see when pages will store that value, we have to look next to {{CardTable2}}: editing it and searching for [[Medium::EDS gets us two results. The first is in the lores block, in a collapsible row that is only displayed if {{{edslore}}} has some value. The second is farther down, in the sets section, and this time is in a collapsible row that only displays if {{{eds_sets}}} has a value. So in short, we see that Medium::EDS gets added if either edslore or eds_sets has a value, and thus those pages are the ones that get displayed on the card list. =) ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 12:26, May 5, 2014 (UTC)
Very complete answer! Thank you very much, it is very clear now for me! --Wilimut TalkMail Paris, 12:28, May 5, 2014 (UTC)
Aah, good. =) I was actually a bit afraid I'd come off as though I were talking down to you a bit or something. =C ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 12:53, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

Japanese-Asian sets? What for?

Now we know that the OCG gets printed in Traditional Chinese for distribution in Hong Kong and Taiwan. So is it necessary to release with a new ID as JA? For what it's worth, if Konami wants to extend their market, they shouldn't print cards only in Japanese. I can't find any lead on this. Can you?Take Fumikô (talkcontribs) 01:29, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Chinese cards (which have a region ID of TC) and Japanese-Asian cards (which have a region ID of JA) are completely separate; they have nothing to do with each other. Japanese-Asian is a branch-off of Japanese, making official a distinction that started, IIRC, the set before DUEA. And yes, we do have proof of Japanese-Asian as its own thing, see the galleries on The Duelist Advent. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:39, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
I was assuming Japanese-Asian cards is for the Asian market. Well, they once exclusively distributed Japanese cards on this market. Now Chinese cards make their debut; if Japanese cards still have to be distributed outside of Japan, what's the point in creating a new ID as "JA". I really don't get it. Why would they want to differ JA from JP, if the cards are all printed in Japanese?Take Fumikô (talkcontribs) 10:50, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
I can't answer that, because I'm not privy to Konami's internal decision-making processes. The only thing I can say is that it's a thing, and we have documented proof that it's a thing, so we document it ourselves. I will, however, point out that Asian-English cards are also a thing, and have been for years, and have the same, or at least similar, Asian distribution as TC and JA cards. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 11:49, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
At least Asian-English cards are printed in English which is spoken in many Asian countries, officially or not. Anyway, thanks for your replies.Take Fumikô (talkcontribs) 12:08, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
Well, while they are limited to the early UDE days, there are also the different English region prints: worldwide, North American, European, and Australian/Oceanic. Similarly, there's French and French-Canadian, though in that case I don't think there was likely to be any geographical overlap between the intended distribution areas. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 12:19, May 7, 2014 (UTC)


some people say if ur card say once per turn it mean on ur turn is it right and somepeople are saying once per turn means each players turn. which one is right and which one is wrong. Can u help me plzzz —This unsigned comment was made by Reaperkiller93 (talkcontribs) 16:59, May 7, 2014

Hello Reaperkiller93, unfortunately I can't provide help with ruling questions. I would suggest starting with our once per turn article, and if you still have questions, you should ask in the ruling queries forum. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 01:49, May 8, 2014 (UTC)

About the Yang Zing's name

Just a thought. I wonder if you guys are gonna change all "Cosmic Dragons" to "Yang Zing", or if you're waiting for the English sets to show up.Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 08:34, May 18, 2014 (UTC)

I don't normally participate in renaming cards to reflect official English names, so I don't know what our actual policy is offhand, but I think we aren't necessarily consistent in how we handle this particular case from one instance to the next. I would lean towards waiting to rename cards until we had their official English names, instead of just the archseries name, though. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:57, May 18, 2014 (UTC)
I thought they were already all renamed. In any case, there's still quite a bit of time before DUEA is released in English and I rather doubt we'll get more confirmed names anytime soon, so if they haven't been renamed, I believe they should be. Cheesedude (talkcontribs) 09:15, May 18, 2014 (UTC)

New Tables? Why not with new changes?

I just checked a List of "<archetype>" cards page. Now the table is split into 2 sub-tables. Why don't we change the term "Monster type" into "Ability" as well? It will make much more sense and be a lot less confusing.Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 01:05, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

Because we don't have confirmation that the English name of that categorization is "Ability", and because changing that label properly is considerably more complicated than just a little edit, mostly because of SMW. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 01:31, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for asking a dumb question, but what is SMW?Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 02:11, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
Semantic MediaWiki. It's an extension that allows you to store various facts about a page and then run automatic queries to find lists of pages with similar features. We use it extensively here; for example, it's used to build the lists of cards on the archetype/series card lists. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:28, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean... this: ""Exceed" is not a valid translation at all; there is no "best" translation here because the Japanese term doesn't translate to anything"? If a "Japanese term doesn't translate to anything", then why do we have the "Japanese translated" option in the first place? Kind of lame, don't you think?Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 03:14, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

I meant exactly what I said: the Japanese term for "Xyz", エクシーズ, has no English translation; there is no English word which that can be translated into. The best you could hope to do is some kind of "well, it sounds kinda like *this* if you squint your eyes and look at it sideways", which is exactly what fan translators did when they came up with "Exceed". And I have no idea why you're asking about the Japanese translated parameter; it's part of the template used on the page, is meant to be used only for those cases where it's applicable, and should not be used on every page just because it's there. I don't know why that of all things should be what gives you trouble, though. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:53, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
Fyi, I had no trouble at all with all these things. I just wanted to know how did you come up with such conclusion. By what means can you tell there is no English word which エクシーズ can be translated into? エクシーズ is not an actual Japanese word (if it was, it should be easily looked up in a Japanese dictionary); it is, by all means, a way of phonetic transcription of the English word "Exceed" (if not, what else could it be?), in the Japanese way of course; and it's not just about the "sound" of the word: エクシーズ has always been translated into "超量" (meaning "Exceed") in the Chinese rulebook since the first time Xyz Monsters showed up, way before Chinese cards were officially printed. Well, I assume the parameter serves as a way of translation for "genuine" Japanese word, and of backward transcription for anything else (doesn't it?). Then if "Tenshi" can be "translated" into "Angel", "Andetto" can be "translated" into "Undead", "Ribaasu" can be "translated" into "Reverse", etc., why can't "Ekushiizu" be "translated" into "Exceed"?Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 10:53, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
What Konami does for the Chinese game can lead to insights on what they did for the Japanese game, but it cannot be simply treated as an absolute: at the end of the day, Japanese is Japanese, and Chinese is Chinese, and Konami can and will handle them differently. Your argument here is akin to arguing that they meant to translate Sea Serpent as "Marine Serpent" because that's what the Italian and Spanish translations of the name mean in English (and before you say anything about how those languages must not have a word for "sea", direct your attention to "mare" for Italian and "mar" for Spanish). And English words have more-or-less standard transcriptions into Japanese using katakana; the katakana rendering for "exceed" would be エクシード. And you are the only person since it was determined that "Exceed" was incorrect that has seriously argued for the translation on-wiki, in spite of more than one fan latching on to it for whatever reason. Every translator who's looked at it so far has gone "no, that can't be exceed", so what qualifies you to declare them all wrong? And your further examples don't prove anything: "tenshi" translates to "angel" because it's the Japanese word for "angel"; "andetto" doesn't actually translate to "undead", but is confirmed to have been a typo by Konami for "undetto", which does; and "ribāsu" is exactly how you would transliterate the English word "reverse" into Japanese. None of these circumstances hold for "ekushīzu". ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:22, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
I think what Dino is trying to say isn't that "エクシーズ" and "exceed" are different, but rather that there isn't enough evidence to conclude that the two are the same. There's been no official acknowledgement of the meaning of "エクシーズ" in the original Japanese, and as Dino noted translations in other languages are often reinterpreted beyond recognition (see the Yang Zing for example), so the fact that the Chinese translators agree with you doesn't necessarily say anything about the the Japanese intention. Since there's been no confirmation from the original source, and since "エクシーズ" doesn't actually translate to "exceed" under industry standards, putting it on the wiki that "exceed" was Konami's intended translation would be speculation at best, which is against wikia policy. If we don't know the correct translation with reasonable certainty, then the proper thing to do is admit that and leave the space blank. Emmic (talkcontribs) 17:54, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
  • "what qualifies you to declare them all wrong?". I have no idea at all what made you say all this: I didn't say anything about right or wrong here. For the last time, I just wondered what made you come up with such conclusion. Don't ge me wrong.
  • I had no idea "undead" was "confirmed" as a valid translation for "andetto", but now I do (maybe).
  • "the katakana rendering for "exceed" would be エクシード." This doesn't sound convincing. As far as I know, like you said, "English words have more-or-less standard transcriptions into Japanese using katakana", so "Exceed" can be either "ekushiizu" or "ekushiido", just like "undead" can be either "andeddo" or "andetto", "kid" can be either "kiddo" or "kidzu", "ace" can either be "eisu" or "eesu".
  • As I perceive from what you said: a Japanese transcription for an English word must follow some standard systems (what is "standard" and what "standard" is followed by the wiki?), or it must be foolproof. If so, a de-transcription process can be easily accepted (eg. "ribaasu" -> "reverse"). If not, no such process is preferred, unless it was (somehow) confirmed by Konami (eg. "ekushiizu" -> "exceed" (wrong!); "andetto" -> "undead" (correct))
  • "Your argument here is akin to arguing that they meant to translate Sea Serpent as "Marine Serpent" because that's what the Italian and Spanish translations of the name mean in English". For God's sake! I just wanted to provide a literal translation (which is why I wrote "lit."). That has nothing to do with my "argument" here! Just remove it if you don't feel like it.
  • "If we don't know the correct translation with reasonable certainty, then the proper thing to do is admit that and leave the space blank." Take a look at the Yang Zing page, and you see a claim ""Yang Zing", known as "Cosmic Dragon" (竜りゅう星せい Ryūsei) in the OCG". As far as I know, "Cosmic Dragon" can't be said to be "correct" or not, hasn't ever been confirmed by Konami, and was just a brilliant idea (wasn't it?) of some guys in the organization. But still it's put right there, on the top line.
By the way, Dinoguy1000, you haven't cleaned up the Xyz Summon page. I wouldn't do what I don't want to. Will you? Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 01:16, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
Please calm down some; it wasn't my intention to be antagonistic, confrontational, or dismissive towards you. We have had problems in the past with an editor who believed his way was the only way in regards to translation, and refused to work with us even after we adopted the current policy of using Org translations, so we are naturally somewhat leery when someone else comes in and starts simply adding or changing translations with little discussion or reasoning.
"Undead" and "andetto" aren't a simple matter of correct/incorrect, as I said above: "andetto" is a mistransliteration of "undead" into Japanese, and the correct transliteration would be "undetto" (or even something like "undeddo"). This is a case of Konami screwing up and later publicly stating they screwed up and what the correct form should be. UIAM, several card names/lores use "undetto" instead of "andetto".
The general method for coming up with a transliteration is approximating the sounds of one language in the other (if you're of a more academic bent, you can devise systems that reflect the historical development or similar characteristics of the source language, and many such systems have been created for Japanese and other languages, but these can be nonintuitive and difficult to learn, since they don't necessarily reflect (perceived) pronunciation of the modern spoken language). The revised Hepburn romanization system the wiki uses is precisely that: it seeks to approximate the pronunciation of modern spoken Japanese using sounds commonly found in modern spoken English (specifically, I believe, American English). This gives rise to a very obvious method for transliterating English words into Japanese: reverse the direction, and find those sounds in spoken Japanese that best approximate the pronunciation of the English word. This is why I am arguing against "ekushīzu" as a correct transliteration of "exceed"; working from our principle, the back-transliteration would come out to something like "exceez", which is obviously not a valid English word. This principle also explains why "andetto" is not actually a correct transliteration of "undead" even though Konami treats it as such: the constructions "undetto" and "undeddo" both come closer to approximating the English pronunciation using Japanese sounds. This also takes care of your "kid" example: "kidzu" would be back-transliterated to "kids". "Ace" is another example, though, of two potentially-correct transliterations; "eisu" and "ēsu" both sound quite close to the English pronunciation, potentially depending on your specific dialect of English. Back to the "exceed" case, to make a more general argument, transliterations of English words with a terminating "d" into Japanese, in my experience, exclusively use a "d" or "t" phoneme, most commonly "do" or "du" depending on the overall pronunciation of the word; "so" or "su" are instead used for words with a terminating "s" sound.
I had nothing to do with the Org translation of Yang Zing, but the team includes a number of experienced translators and at least one native speaker of Japanese; if they say "Cosmic Dragon" is a valid translation, I am inclined to believe them. Remember that translation is an art, not a science, and there is often no single "correct" translation: natural language is very heavily context-dependent, and that context consists of the surrounding text, the culture and history surrounding the work and author, the author's personal knowledge, and any number of other factors. There's a reason we still do not have high-quality machine translation, in spite of the extensive, intensive effort that has been made for decades to develop it; if it were just a simple matter of word mappings with the occasional exception, we would all already be able to speak, write, read, and understand any of the world's thousands of languages thanks to relatively simple automatic translation programs.
I don't know why you even brought that up; I don't recall saying anywhere that I intended to clean that page up. I certainly wouldn't make such a declaration, either, given that I don't understand the mechanics of the game very well, and given my already-extensive to-do list. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:06, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
Well, I still believe "kid" can be either "kiddo" or "kidzu". I just looked it up in this Wikia and find a lot of "kidzu": Most of these cases involve just ONE kid. And when I say "what standard system is followed by the Wikia", I meant "what standard transcription system" (is there such a system?), not a romanization system like Hepburn. As much as I love "kiddo" as the best transcription (the process here is not "transliteration" which deals with script conversion, but "transcription" which deals with sound conversion), I still believe there is nothing wrong about "kidzu" being "kid"; the wrong thing is that Konami always screws up, they write it as "キッズ" (kizzu) (but still "kizzu" is translated to "kids" instead of "kid", even where there is supposed to be just ONE "kid") instead of "キッヅ" (kidzu) (which is exactly what they did to "ekushiizu"; by the way, the Hepburn romanization doesn't ever support "du", "jj", "cchi" or "ddu" like the romanization method used by this Wikia, as far as I'm concerned). But if you incline to believe in what you have always believed, suit yourself. And I'm really sorry for making you misunderstand: I meant removing the "Japanese translated" parameter on that page. Finally, thanks for the talk, real interesting!
P/S: Speaking of romanization, I believe there are serious accuracy issues on these two pages: Lunar Queen Elzaim and Madolche Baaple. But if you guys can't come up with any better ideas, so be it.Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 04:15, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
Note that all cards with "kizzu" in their Japanese names have a translated name parameter showing the word as "Kids" (or, in one case, "Kid's"). I can assure you that this did not happen by any concerted effort; it's been done organically over time as people have noticed and filled in the parameter. The official English names of these cards being "Kid" are because Konami decided that's what the English name should be, instead of "Kids". Konami's translation choices do not impact the actual translation or transliteration of words (I was very careful to avoid insinuating this above when I talked about "andetto" being an incorrect transliteration of "undead"). For more on this, I would direct your attention to the Wikipedia article on transliteration into Japanese (note in particular the very second sentence, which begins "As far as possible, sounds in the source language are matched to the nearest sounds in the Japanese language").
You're confused here (or I'm misunderstanding you because it's late and I'm tired, in which case I apologize and you should correct me). Transliteration is the conversion of text from one script to another - the script pairing for the purposes of this definition is arbitrary; it is just as valid to talk about transliteration of Japanese into the Latin alphabet as it is to talk about transliteration of e.g. Greek into Devanagari. Romanization is just the specific case of transliteration from an arbitrary source script to the Latin alphabet. And transcription is, depending who you ask, the representation of any language in written form, or specifically only of spoken language in written form. I was (or attempted to be) very careful in my use above, using "transcription" to refer specifically to the practice of rendering English text in katakana by matching the English pronunciation with a valid Japanese pronunciation. Again, though, I direct your attention to the Wikipedia article on transliteration into Japanese, which explains it far better, more thoroughly, and more eloquently than I could ever hope to manage.
I never said this wiki uses the Hepburn system, but rather that it uses a revised Hepburn system - specifically, the same one used on Wikipedia. That being said, we have never undertaken anything like an intensive review of Wikipedia's system to determine if we actually correctly follow (or even completely understand) it, so there are bound to be errors and deviations in various places around here - including, potentially, the two articles you pointed to (though I didn't look at them before posting this). ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:50, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
The "Cosmic Dragon" issue isn't really a good comparison here, nor is the "Marine Serpent" example for that matter. In both cases, the intended meaning of the original Japanese is clear, and the conflict stems from how accurate we want the translation to be with regard to literal meaning vs. intended meaning. In short, it's just a stylistic issue. Here, you're making a factual claim - that the intended meaning of "エクシーズ" is "to exceed, to surpass", when the intended meaning itself is unclear. (Just thought it would be good to make that distinction). Agree that this is an interesting conversation though. Emmic (talkcontribs) 09:43, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
I would be glad to put an end to this topic (which is getting silly), by telling you, Dinoguy1000, please double check before you give anyone a reference source, please do not lead them to nowhere. The appropriate Wikipedia article would be Transcription into Japanese. The one you suggest hasn't even been created, for crying out loud! And I'm damn sure I'm not the one who's confused here. You must be really tired, I can tell.Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 10:14, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that was the intended target of my link. I meant to double-check before saving, but overlooked it in my rush to wrap up and get to bed. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 18:50, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Scales of Pendulum Monsters

Hello. I was looking at the List of Pendulum Monsters, and that type of list shows their Level, Type, ATK, etc. but not their Pendulum Scales, so how can we add it to those lists? --Missign0 (talkcontribs) 03:15, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

I've been aware of that being needed since I added support for Pendulum Monsters to {{CardTable2}}; I've just been lazy about adding it because the list uses {{Monster type card list}}, which is also used by several other lists that should *not* display Pendulum Scales, which complicates the work needed here. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:48, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
*sorry for meddling* But you know, even sole Xyz Monster lists or lists with no Xyz Monsters (such as lists of "Level X monsters") have both "Level" and "Rank", when only one of them is needed. The other simply stays blank. I say there's no problem in having "Pendulum Scale" in all lists too, since if a card doesn't have Pendulum Scales it will automatically not be listed, and it will be blank just like the "Rank". LegendaryAsariUgetsu (talkcontribs) 01:26, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
True, there're a number of such inconsistencies (or, perhaps, excessive consistencies) already spread throughout the card lists. My concern here, though, is the sheer width of the tables; adding yet another column even where it's not needed won't help readers at all, particularly readers with small screens (e.g. mobile viewers). So I would prefer to implement this "correctly" rather than just rushing it in and making the experience even worse where it has no need to be. Thank you for pointing out some of the other problem areas, though; I'll be sure to look at addressing them as well (and feel free to point out more if you happen to notice any). =) ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 01:32, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

ARC-V one shot

So, this month a one shot of ARC-V is being published on V-Jump. I asked Cheese 'bout it, and he said that since it's not a continuous series, there's no need to create articles for the manga yet (such as "Yu-Gi-Oh! ARC-V (manga)", "Yuya Sakaki (manga)", etc.). But there are 2 issues. Adding "|manga_av = SP1" to a card's article automatically creates a "Yu-Gi-Oh! ARC-V (manga)" link, also it says "SP1" is not a valid name (the ZEXAL cards which appear in the ZEXAL SP1 are written the same, though). LegendaryAsariUgetsu (talkcontribs) 22:21, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware of both issues. The first is a trivial fix, but one I'd rather avoid if it looks likely that a "proper" manga series will be starting in the near future, and the second is likely to be trivial as well, but if not, will probably require some concentrated effort to figure out. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 01:38, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

South Africa, Cyprus and Latin America's ID?

I wonder if these regions have ever had their own ID. Do you have any lead?Take Fumikô (バカアキ) (talk) 01:25, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even aware of official distribution in South America or Cyprus, but if they have any it'd probably be English product. Latin America is its own distribution area and "officially" receives Spanish product, meaning a region ID of "SP", but they almost certainly get a significant amount of English product as well. Though keep in mind this is all based on my own knowledge/recollection; I could be mistaken or misinformed and there could be historical detail I'm missing too. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 01:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC)