Forum:Chaining/Timing Question

Earlier, I was dueling someone and the field was set-up like this:

I had a Caius the Shadow Monarch & Majesty's Ruler on the field, and I attacked his Evilswarm Exciton Knight (with two XYZ material attached) with Caius. It was his only monster on the field.

He then activated his only facedown S/T---Breakthrough Skill---and targeted my Majesty's Ruler to negate its effect. I'm not sure when he activated it, whether or not it was in response to my attack (but I assume so).

Accordingly, I chained a facedown Forbidden Dress I had to his Breakthrough Skill, and at some point during this, he detached an XYZ material from his Exciton Knight and said that thanks to the way the chain resolved, I still lose everything on my field thanks to his monster's effect?

How did that work, exactly?

If my Majesty's Ruler's effect prevents the activation of effects, his Evilswarm monster having a quick effect (clearly stated on the card), then how did he manage to activate it at all?

Because from my understanding, since it resolved backwards (My Dress protecting Majesty from Breakthrough), he shouldn't have been able to use its effect in any way - thanks to Majesty's continuous effect and Breakthrough Skill never touching him?

Was there something (a step perhaps) that I might've missed? I'd like to clear it up.

Thanks in advance!

ZE 01:06, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Forbidden Dress doesn't protect your monster from Breakthrough Skill.--Lê (talk • contribs) 01:19, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Really? I thought that since Breakthrough says it targets my monster, with a chained Dress (preventing targeting from card effects) activating first, it'd be fine. What prevents it from working? ZE 01:31, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

You monster is targeted already when Breakthrough Skill activated.--Lê (talk • contribs) 01:59, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Even considering that Forbidden Dress doesn't protect you from the Breakthrough Skill, there is no way in hell that this scenario could possively have destroyed Majesty's Fiend. First of all, you chained Forbidden Dress to Breakthrough Skill. Forget the fact that it doesn't protect fiend from that trap, the chain has to resolve backwards first, with Exciton being unable to intervene because until Breakthrough Skill is resolved, Majesty's Fiend is still active. The first link of a chain doesn't affect the second or third links until the chain actually gets to it. He could still activate Exciton's effect after this chain resolves, but then Forbidden dress's effect would be active and it protects Fiend from Exciton.

The only way that this scenario could have worked is if you didn't chain to breakthrough skill, and instead started a new chain with dress in which he used Exciton in response because dress doesn't take effect until after Exciton's already resolved. Seeing that that's not what happened, that you're certain you did chain to BS, I'm guessing either he thought you started a second chain or more likely he doesn't know his shit. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 01:38, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Oh and by the way, you activated Forbidden Dress too late for it to be protected from Breakthrough Skill. It can't stop an effect that already selected FD's target as a target earlier in the chain. Something like Skill Prisoner, on the other hand, would protect it. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 01:40, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you both for your replies! So there's no way he could've activated its effect before or during my attack, because Majesty prevented that. Therefore, Breakthrough had to be chained to my attack, and he had to somehow chain Exciton afterwards?

Assuming Dress was useless due to missed timing/etc, though Breakthrough DID negate Majesty's effect (and effects could be activated again between the attack and then), he had no opportunity to activate Exciton's effect before Breakthrough resolved since he chained it directly to my attack? And if the chain resolved, wouldn't his monster already have been destroyed before he could start a new chain?

Am I correct? ZE 01:58, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

You have no idea how the game work, do you? You cannot "chain to an attack", you can only activate an effect in response to it. Once the chain in this timing resolve, you are still in Battle Step, when you can use non-timing effects like Book of Moon, Waboku, Exciton, etc. And after Battle Step, the battle enters the Damage Step, which splited into 7 substeps. In short, the battle is a long process with multiple possible chains. It is not like "if the chain resolved, wouldn't his monster already have been destroyed".

Read Breakdown of the Battle Phase.--Lê (talk • contribs) 02:09, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think. I don't know, your words are a little jumbled from my pov. Whatever the case is, the following happens:

1) Somehow an activation window for Breakthrough Skill is opened.

2) Opponent activates Breakthrough Skill

3) You chain with Forbidden Dress.

Your opponent apparently believes he can activate Exciton Knight's eff right here, and this is also the only opportunity in which Exciton's effect would work before Forbidden Dress resolves. However, Exciton's effect can't actually be used at this time, as Majesty's effect is still active. Exciton cannot be activated here.

4) Chain resolves; Forbidden Dress begins to protect your monster from targeting and destruction by card effects, and then breakthrough Skill resolves, negating Fiend's effect.

5) Any time during from here on during the turn, your opponent can activate Exciton's effect. However, Forbidden Dress protects fiend from destruction by card effect.

Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 02:18, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Aeron Solo, your explanation is complicated and incorrect. You can have many chain in the Damage Step, not only one.--Lê (talk • contribs) 02:20, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion! And I only attacked with Caius, so Majesty never even saw combat. To summarize:

1. Caius' attack
2. Breakthrough as a response to that attack, targeting Majesty's continuous effect
3. Me chaining Dress (targeting Majesty and lowering its ATK) to Breakthrough, which was ineffective
4. Dress resolves (CL2?), protecting Majesty from effect destruction
5. Breakthrough resolves (CL1?), negating Majesty's effect

And at some point, Exciton's effect supposedly kicked in. But not before the attack, and not until Breakthrough resolved. It should be noted that I had another face-down spell at the time, so I assume it and Caius were destroyed - but not Majesty. ZE 02:18, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Evilswarm Exciton Knight can be activated after Breakthrough Skill resolves.--Lê (talk • contribs) 02:20, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Okay now that we have everything cleared up, the chain works out like it should. And Exciton's effect could not have been activated during or before the chain. If he did, that's an illegal move. And after the chain resolves, Exciton's effect would be worthless against Fiend. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 02:22, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Again clarifying, if Exciton is activated, you would lose everything except for fiend. Magic Knight, I think the main point is somehow his opponent claims that he lost Fiend to Exciton's destruction effect. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 02:25, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, he specifically stated after it all went down that Majesty, Caius, and my face-down were gone, thanks to Exciton. He quit the duel because he was set on Majesty being destroyed. Thank you, Aeron! ZE 02:28, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Face-downs? I never heard about those. Everything except Majesty should have been destroyed, Exciton destroys everything except for itself. Those "face-downs" that you talk about should definitely have been destroyed unless something else was protecting them. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 02:32, May 11, 2014 (UTC)