Forum:In which step do monsters "battle"?

In a recent duel with a friend, I was having trouble dealing with his Ally of Justice Catastor, so I summoned a Hyper Hammerhead and attacked in an attempt to send his Catastor back to his Extra Deck. However, my friend claims that Hyper Hammerhead's effect wouldn't activate because the line in Catastor's effect stating "without applying damage calculation" means that the entire Damage Step is skipped. After some research, I later pointed out to him that Catastor's effect would only activate at the Start of the Damage Step (substep 1) which means that the Damage Step would have to start for Catastor's effect to activate, and if it starts then it would have to end. I also pointed out that the phrase "without applying damage calculation" could only apply to Damage substeps 3-5, while Hyper Hammerhead's effect would activate in Damage substep 7. My friend then claimed that this was irrelevant because Catastor would destroy Hyper Hammerhead before battle took place between them in the first place, but I can't seem to find anything to confirm this.

Basically, here's my question: Apart from Damage substep 7, what portion of the Battle Phase would need to be skipped/negated in order to prevent Hyper Hammerhead's effect from activating (the part where "battle" takes place)? ISmartMan (talk • contribs) 17:18, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well, you can negate its effect but there isn't a way to skip the end of the damage step without effects like those of Catastor, Grand Mole, etc.BobaFett2 (talk)

So, Catastor's effect really would skip Damage substep 7, even though Hyper Hammerhead doesn't need to be on the field for its effect to activate? Please confirm. Also, I'd still like to know just which part of the Battle Phase (apart from Damage substep 7) could be skipped or negated in order to stop Hyper Hammerhead's effect from activating. ISmartMan (talk • contribs) 17:40, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Catastor says "without applying Damage Calculation". This means that there is no step for Hyperhead's effect to activate. However, this will not work if Hyperhead is face-down since it's flipped up AFTER Catastor's effect would activate, thus making Catastor's effect not applicable.User:BObaFett2/sig2

Think Gaara before he turned to good thanks to Naruto, he used "Sand Coffin" and crushed his opponent with it, give them no chance to "bounce" him back. Same idea with Catastor, but unfortunate, Grand Mole can escape that with reverse chain. --FredCat 18:07, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yep, because SEGOC says that the non-compulsory effects activate first.BobaFett2 (talk)

While I would STILL like to know just which part of the battle phase "battle" takes place (step name or substep name/number, please), I am still concerned that no one is answering my situational specific question in the same phrasing that I am using. Please remember, Catastor's ruling with DD. Warrior does not apply here because DD. Warrior's effect phrasing means its resolution could occur during a substep that is technically a part of damage calculation, while Hyper Hammerhead's effect would activate simultaneously with Catastor's ability, but would only resolve at the END of the Damage Step (after DD. Warrior's ability would have resolved, but still inside the Damage Step), regardless of whether or not he's on the field. For that point, I really won't be satisfied until someone states "Catastor's ability skips every single substep of the Damage Step after substep 1, regardless of whether those substeps are part of damage calculation, or even if anything would have happened during those substeps", AND can provide me with a source that confirms this. Sorry to be so picky, but this just doesn't make any sense to me otherwise, since every single requirement for Hyper Hammerhead's effect would have been met. And PLEASE remember that I'm still curious as to precisely where in the Battle Phase the requirements for triggering both Catastor's and Hyper Hammerhead's effects would be met. That is, after all, the reason I posted this thread in the first place.ISmartMan (talk • contribs) 21:59, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

It's not that we don't get it, it's that it's just not important. There isn't a set of substeps...BobaFett2 (talk)

Yup, look like that "SmartMan" is getting "DumbMan" after all, he didn't understand the whole shit straight. --FredCat 22:05, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

For your information: The battle phase is split up into four sections, one of them being the Damage Step, but that is not split up. All that matters it the "beginning" and "end" are not when the monsters battle.BobaFett2 (talk)

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Breakdown_of_the_Battle_Phase <--Here are the substeps I'm talking about. They are covered between the headings "Damage Step" and "OCG Battle Phase".ISmartMan (talk • contribs) 22:13, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

hammerhead musst actually touch the monster in order to bounce it (=damage calculation). All monsters with an effect that activates after they battled must actually touch the opponent in order for their effects to work. -dest- (talk • contribs) 22:40, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

• It's a good idea to use the Forum Search function before asking, e.g. "Forum:Hyper Hammerhead vs. Catastor" -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 22:55, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

I tried Falzar, but I didn't expect for there to be a specific thread about it, so I tried more general search terms, and there were just too many results to sort through. Also, if you check Hyper Hammerhead's rulings, it states that his effect will resolve even if he is destroyed, which would have nullified the last argument made in that thread.

By the way -dest-, that is certainly true, but the same went for Catastor before his effect's phrasing changed (which is when this duel took place), since both he and Hyper Hammerhead had effects starting with "When this monster battles". When Catastor touches Hyper Hammerhead in order to activate his effect, wouldn't Hyper Hammerhead also touch Catastor? As for after his card text changed (to "If this card attacks or is attacked")...well, that's why I'm asking specifically when "battle" takes place, just which step or substep of the Battle Phase the conditions for Hyper Hammerhead's effect are met. I'm pretty sure that the effects would still activate at the same point, but I want to have all my bases covered to avoid future confusion.ISmartMan (talk • contribs) 23:13, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

catastor states, that it destroy without damage calculation. Effects which don't need to touch the opponent specifically state that through that or a similar term or through their rulings at least. -dest- (talk • contribs) 10:32, April 14, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, so I think that here, we may be getting to the root of my confusion. In my mind, card texts like this are divided into two sections: activation restrictions and resolution effects. The former is at the beginning and defines when the effect activates and how it can be avoided, while the latter defines what the effect does and when it happens. I had been under the impression that since the activation restrictions pertaining to when the activation occurs were identical for both cards as "When this monster battles", then their activation timing would also be the same, even though the timing of their resolution effects weren't identical. I had considered the damage calculation phrase in Catastor's effect to be part of the resolution effects, and resulted from its target being destroyed and sent to the graveyard at the beginning of the damage step instead of at the end, and was therefore absent and unable to participate when damage calculation occurs. I also believed that Hyper Hammerhead did not share this phrase in its card text because his effect would send the opponent's monster back to the hand at the end of the damage step, meaning both cards are on the field during damage calculation and can participate. However, I had considered this irrelevant to the situation because both effects activate "When this monster battles", which must surely be decided (and added to the chain) before the damage step even starts for both monsters, and therefore Hyper Hammerhead's effect would still resolve since its effect is never negated and its rulings state that its effect will still resolve if it is destroyed.

If I am mistaken about something, then my misconception is almost certainly somewhere in the above block of text. If I don't mention something important, then I must have forgotten to take it into consideration. Either way, please tell me where any issues exist. ISmartMan (talk • contribs) 18:11, April 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well-it works like this. If Catastor battles with Hammerhead, Hammerhead is destroyed. Catastor does not return to the player's hand because Hammerhead is destroyed too early to battle with Catastor.BobaFett2 (talk)

nothing is devided there. Nothing resolves some time after activation. Effects activate and in the same step they also resolve. Hammerhead never activates bevore the given time. Best example for that is, that flipp effects don't activate when they are flipped face up by an attack (substep2) but activate and resolve in substep6. -dest- (talk • contribs) 18:57, April 14, 2011 (UTC)

So THAT'S it! I hadn't realized that effects like these don't activate and resolve in different phases. Confusion cleared up, thanks for all your help. ISmartMan (talk • contribs) 19:34, April 14, 2011 (UTC)