Forum:Psychic trigger and imperial iron wall

From Yugipedia
Jump to: navigation, search

ok so psychic trigger says "Activate only while your Life Points are lower than your opponent's. Select 2 Psychic-Type monsters in your Graveyard. Remove them from play and draw 2 cards." if you have imperial iron wall can you avoid having to remove from play the two psychic monsters??? — This unsigned comment was made by 75.136.128.82 (talk • contribs)

  • If Imperial Iron Wall is out, you can't activate it at all. --Bluedog (Talk) 04:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
  • If Imperial Iron Wall is chained, though, Psychic Trigger still resolves, but no monsters are removed from play. --Darth Covah (Talk)●(Contribs) 07:10, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I believe you would also not draw, since the two effects occur at the same time. If you can't return the cards, you can't draw. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 16:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
      • I think that the drawing effect resolves normally like as Light and Darkness Dragon's effect that destroys all cards you control still resolves when you cannot special summon the targeted monster in the graveyard. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 21:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Isn't the drawing effect like Allure of Darkness? Its rulings state that if Imperial Iron Wall is chained, you still draw, and instead of removing a DARK type, you reveal it. Isn't this the case here too? --Darth Covah (Talk|Contribs) 08:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
    • No. As I re-read them all again, now I think that Deus Ex Machina is right. If I'm correct, the removing the targeted cads (for Psychic Trigger), or the destruction of all cards you control (for Light and Darkness Dragon) is something like a "cost" to resolve the next part of the effect (draw 2 cards, special summon the monster), and if you cannot "pay" it, you lose the next part of effect. But if you cannot resolve the next part of the effect you still resolve the first part (the "cost"). Like you still destroy all cards on the field when the monster is not in the graveyard for Light and Darkness Dragon.("Cost" and "pay" are my examples for explanation. Don't confuse them with those Costs). ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 14:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
EDIT: I see what you mean. But why do you draw with Allure of Darkness and not with Psychic Trigger? Is it because of the timing of the effect (Allure= Draw then RFG, Trigger=RFG and draw)? --Darth Covah (Talk|Contribs) 17:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Look guys. First of all Allure of Darkness or Pot of Avarice have 2 different effects that are combined with "then" which means:

  • 2)If the card is activated and another card is chained and forbids the first effect, then the whole effect disappears (and the second isn't apply). (See Dust Tornado when loses it's target), (See Pot of Avarice when losses it's target)
  • 3)If the card is activated and another card is chained and forbids the second effect, then the first effect applies normally and only the second disappears. (See Allure of Darkness when chained by Imperial Iron Wall)

Second we have Light and Darkness Dragon and Psychic Trigger. They have two effects which they are combined with "and". Actually those effects are applied together and works like 1 effect not 2. Lets say it is 1 effect with 2 parts. Now, according to all rulings:

  • 1)If one of those parts cannot be applied the whole effect cannot be activated.

According to those, when Psychic Trigger is chained by Imperial Iron Wall, you still get it's second "part" of the effect and draw 2 cards. It has to work like that. What do you think? ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 19:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

  • That's what I thought, too. But is it that way? Do you draw? According to the above, that seems to be the case. --Darth Covah (Talk|Contribs) 19:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Lets see what Deus Ex Machina thinks about that theory and if he also agrees then it should work like that. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 19:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Pretty much right. The problem is, many cards have specific rulings, so they work differently.
"Psychic Trigger" has been ruled to work like "Pot of Avarice", regardless of its wording: if one of the monsters is removed from the Graveyard, you don't return/exclude and you don't draw. This should apply if you cannot exclude the cards for any reason.
Also, mandatory Trigger Effects always activate and try to resolve as much as possible, even if you can't fully resolve it. Like "Thestalos the Firestorm Monarch" vs no Hand, "Spear Cretin" vs Players not having monsters, and "Caius the Shadow Monarch" vs "Imperial Iron Wall". "Light and Darkness Dragon" has received a similar ruling:
"If your “Light and Darkness Dragon” is the only card on your side of the field when it is destroyed and sent to your Graveyard, its effect to Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard will still activate, even though you control no cards."
To my knowledge, this means that it resolves properly and you Special Summon a monster.
--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 23:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
  • So, if Psychic Trigger has been ruled to work like Pot of Avarice, then it's correct lore should be this: "Activate only while your Life Points are lower than your opponent's. Select 2 Psychic-Type monsters in your Graveyard. Remove them from play, then draw 2 cards". Does the same apply to Fragrance Storm too, and to all effects with the second part of drawing cards? Also a question for me: If a card on the field prevents setting S/T cards, can Dust Tornado be activated? I think it can because to set a card after it destroys a S/T card is optional. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 07:08, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
    • One more question! There is also another type of effects that are combined with "stop" (.) (like Level Modulation). Level Modulation: Your opponent draws 2 cards. Special Summon 1 monster from your Graveyard..... To those effects I think they work like those which are combined with (Then), and when the first effect cannot resolve (after is forbid in the chain), the next is disappeared also. For example with Level Modulation, if an effect is chained to it and prevents the opponent to draw the cards, then the monster is not special summoned. Is that right or they work the different way (and)? ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 09:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
"Psychic Trigger" has both parts resolve simultaneously. Your wording would mean otherwise.
I'd say that "Fragrance Storm" works the same way, although I have no evidence to back it up.
"Dust Tornado" is different, because "cannot Set" effects like "Dark Simorgh" work differently than "cannot exclude" effects like "Imperial Iron Wall". (See "Scrap-Iron Scarecrow" vs "Dark Simorgh".) "Dust Tornado" can still be activated because its effect does something other than Set a card - however, you still cannot Set when resolving it.
To my knowledge, full-stop effects like "Level Modulation" work like "then" effects (since the parts don't occur simultaneously).
--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 20:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
2) Hey! Why is that happening with the "setting effects". I know, because of the ruling. I thought that Dust Tornado can be activated because setting a card is optional, and not by that. Is this an exception also, like Psychic Trigger and Fragrance Storm? It has to be. There no other way to explain it. The only way to be false is if in TCG works differently, but it don't. Right? If it is an exception, do you know other effects that works that way? (Also for the first question with Psychic Trigger).
3) Thanks! That's what I thought too. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 20:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
1) I believe so, yes.
2) "Cannot Set" effects are different from "cannot exclude" effects. The two are not comparable. Why? Because Konami says so.
--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 22:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://yugipedia.com/index.php?title=Forum:Psychic_trigger_and_imperial_iron_wall&oldid=784376"