Talk:Phantom Knights

This is the talk page for discussing the page, Phantom Knights.
This page is for discussing how to improve the page. For general discussion and comments, use the general discussion forum. To ask about rulings or how cards work, use the ruling queries forum. To get help with building a Deck, use the Deck help forum. Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.	Please try to Be polite Assume good faith Be welcoming

Page move

I think moving this page was a huge mistake. It wasn't even confirmed that archetype support was for "Phantom Knights", let alone "Phantom". This supposedly confirmed that support is for "Phantom Knights" rather than "The Phantom Knights". If it were an Official Proxy, that claim would be supported, but it's not. It's merely a product blurb; it would not be surprising to see a product blurb say "ZW" rather than the support string "ZW -".

Regardless, even if we did know that support was for "Phantom Knights" (which we don't), that would not mean that support for this archetype will be for "Phantom" rather than "The Phantom". There is no reason to require "The Phantom" to be a sub-archetype of "Phantom Knights" in the TCG, since it's entirely possible to just support it as a pair in every case (or just always use "The" before "Phantom Knights" anyway, even though it's not in the support string).

As such, considering the HUGE issues associated with the archetype being called "Phantom" in English, we should move this page back to "The Phantom". --SnorlaxMonster 16:02, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Personally I'd wait til an official Proxy before any kind of move was done. otherwise yeah move it back

Dread (talk • contribs) 16:15, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Yuto from Yu-Gi-Oh! ARC-V, episode 6 (dub) said he activates "Phantom Spear" twice without the supposed "The" (http://www.watchcartoonslive.org/yu-gi-oh-arc-v-episode-7-english-dubbed/ 19:19). That plus the product blurb, although unofficial, provides a consistent basis of what the official TCG name will be. I'd say it holds more weight than JUMP promos due to the Dub of the anime using it.
And about the issues with TCG names, well look at "Void" Spell/Trap Cards. Though it's not likely and would hardly be an issue, something like this is possible. Lightning Laxus (talk • contribs) 16:45, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

The anime argument, unlike the product blurb argument, is actually a valid argument. However, I do not think the anime name of the cards is convincing enough to say it will be used as the TCG name. You could argue that we should use the apparent anime name rather than a potential TCG name, but until we've heard the cards referred to as an archetype (e.g. "it lets me add 1 "Phantom" card to my hand") I'm not entirely convinced. As I already stated, the use of that name in the product blurb tells us nothing about what the support string will be.

Not sure what you're saying about JUMP promos. I don't know of any that are relevant in this case. If there are, I would argue that any printed card, promo or not, certainly holds more weight than a product blurb or the anime.

Additionally, I don't see your point about "Void" cards. Support is only for "Void" Spell/Trap Cards, so while there are some Monster Cards that have "Void" in their English names, Konami doesn't bother with edge cases in archetype support (although for "Void" they do worry about the significant case of "Null and Void" when relevant); you see a similar thing with "Worms" not worrying about non-Reptiles. However, if this archetype were to be named "Phantom" in English in the TCG, every support card would need to exclude all of the stray "Phantom" Spell/Trap Cards ("Deal of Phantom", "Phantom Hand", and "Horn of the Phantom Beasts") in its card text every time it supports the archetype; it would also require the card to be updated if any more "Phantom Beast" Spell/Trap Cards were released, or require the entire "Phantom Beast" archetype to be excluded. When the solution to minimize such a problem is so obvious and non-intrusive, I don't expect Konami to not use it. I'm not saying it definitely won't be the name, but it would certainly be odd. --SnorlaxMonster 17:35, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Eh, I'd stick with the anime name over a fan-name with the sake of former being "odd." Well, at least for now, we have something. Lightning Laxus (talk • contribs) 18:22, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

What the English Dub said means NOTHING. Recall Yugioh 5D's. Start of the second half, the Meklords appeared. at the time they had no English release and their names were Kept, Ghost called Wisel "Machine Emperor Wisel". later they changed it to "Meklord" after they were released in the TCG

Similarly, Manga names for monsters do not always match the IRL cards (5D's manga Ancient Fairy Dragon...)

The exact same thing can still repeat here

The guys who "Translate" the cards are NOT the guys who Translate the Anime and Mangas, so we shouldn't use any dub names here.

@Snorlax, you forgot Mecha Phantom Beasts

Dread (talk • contribs) 20:18, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, several things. The dub is official, so that means "Phantom Spear" stays "Phantom Spear". The archetype itself however does not exist in the anime. There is no support for it. Therefore, "The Phantom" is fine for an archetype name here. If the dub gets to Yuto's other episodes before the cards are released and removes "The", we'll move them again then. For now, the ones that are not "Phantom Spear" should contain "The". There are a few other changes to make and the Org's revised spoiler will be out in a day or so, so relax. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 22:13, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Membership

Wait I don't get it. Do the 6 cards: "Grass Phantom", "Odd-Eyes Phantom Dragon", "Phantom Bounzer", "Phantom Dragon", "Phantom of Chaos" and "Stardust Phantom" actually work with "The Phantom Knights of Cloven Helm", "The Phantom Knights of Fragile Armor" and "The Phantom Knights of Ragged Gloves"? Because those 3 say "Phantom Knights" card, not Spell/Trap. Like I just mean the page says "because TCG and OCG support for this archetype only works on Spell and Trap Cards, this is not an issue", so do the 6 do not work in both the OCG and TCG? Like "Ragged Gloves" for instance, does the (2) effect specifically isolate the 6 I listed from being sent to the Graveyard? GhostHoneybee (talk • contribs) 15:45, November 1, 2016 (UTC)GhostHoneybee 10:45, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Those six monsters are linked to The Phantom Knights monsters but do not have The Phantom Knights in their names and thus will not work with the support. --MasterMarik (talk • contribs) 15:55, November 1, 2016 (UTC)

The Japanese text of "The Phantom Knights of Cloven Helm" supports 2 specific things: "phantom knight" cards (in the TCG, this is the equivalent of "The Phantom Knights" cards), and "Phantom" Spell/Trap Cards (in the TCG, the equivalent of "Phantom Knights" Spell/Trap Cards). Thus, all those monsters you mentioned will not work.

This is because the Spell/Trap Cards' Japanese names are translated as stuff like "Phantom Wing" and "Phantom Sword". Japan couldn't just make Cloven Helm's text specify "Phantom" cards, since this would mean unrelated monsters would be supported, such as "Stardust Phantom" and "Grass Phantom" (which are technically "Phantom" cards in Japanese too).

Presumably, the TCG interpreted "Phantom" Spell/Trap Cards into "Phantom Knights" Spell/Trap Cards since there were English cards that had "Phantom" in their names, yet weren't considered to be "Phantom" cards in Japan (e.g. "Horn of the Phantom Beast", "Deal of Phantom", "Phantom Hand"). And whenever a card like Cloven Helm specified both "phantom knights" cards and "Phantom" Spell/Trap Cards in its Japanese text, the TCG conveniently combines this into "Phantom Knights" cards. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 16:16, November 1, 2016 (UTC)