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| | ==Steelswarm a sub-archetype== | | ==Steelswarm a sub-archetype== |
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| | :::::::::They could have just gone with naming the monsters "'''E'''lswarm", which doesn't look quite as bad. But I suppose this isn't the place to discuss the poor decisions of Konami. --[[User:Golden Key|Golden Key]] ([[User talk:Golden Key|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Golden Key|contribs]]) 13:02, September 28, 2012 (UTC) | | :::::::::They could have just gone with naming the monsters "'''E'''lswarm", which doesn't look quite as bad. But I suppose this isn't the place to discuss the poor decisions of Konami. --[[User:Golden Key|Golden Key]] ([[User talk:Golden Key|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Golden Key|contribs]]) 13:02, September 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::::::@Goldy, I have not forget them, I was just make a point - after all, old HERO stuffs usually had "Hero" as Capitals regardless their positions. So I am settling with that choice - "Lswarm" is it. --<span style="font:10pt 'Bookman Old Style'">[[User:FredCat100/Smily Faces|<span style="color:#000">i</span>]][[User:FredCat100|<span style="font-size:13pt;color:#000">F</span>]][[User talk:FredCat100#top|<span style="color:#000">r</span>]][[User:FredCat100/friends|<span style="color:#000">e</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Ruling List|<span style="color:#000">d</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Disambiguation|<span style="font-size:13pt;color:#000">C</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Research|<span style="color:#000">a</span>]][[Special:Contributions/FredCat100|<span style="color:#000">t</span>]]</span> 13:59, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::::Those should both use lowercase, not the other way around. As I've said [[Talk:hunder#Capital H|elsewhere]], the "discussions" that led to those pages being capital were circular arguments (each pointed to the other for support), and ''all'' of the card lores use the lowercase forms. <span class="nowrap">「[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color:#00f;">ディノ</span><span style="color:#080;">奴</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color:#F90;">千？！</span>]]」<sup>[[wikipedia:Help:IJP|?]] · [[User talk:Dinoguy1000#top|☎ Dinoguy1000]]</sup></span> 18:45, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | Is lswarm not the collective name of both "Steelswarm" and "Evilswarm"? Therefore, this sentence is kind of inaccurate: ""lswarm", known as "Verz" (ヴェルズ Veruzu) in the OCG is a Duel Terminal archetype of DARK-Attribute monsters" - the archetypes are "Evilswarm" and "Steelswarm", but they are collectively referred to as "lswarm." Or am I missing something?--[[User:YamiWheeler|YamiWheeler]] ([[User talk:YamiWheeler|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/YamiWheeler|contribs]]) 18:49, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | :It's a unique (read, stupid) situation resulting from the TCG trying to fix the botched naming of the "[[Steelswarm]]" archetype. It would be pointless to make both a "lswarm" and a "Evilswarm" page. --[[User:Golden Key|Golden Key]] ([[User talk:Golden Key|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Golden Key|contribs]]) 19:13, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ::I understand that, but calling "lswarm" the same as "Verz" is wrong, because "Verz" is the name of the archetype in the OCG, while "Evilswarm" is the counterpart in the TCG. I agree with what Thanonyx said on your talkpage, we should make "lswarm" the archetype, with "Steelswarm" and "Evilswarm" being sub-archetypes. (Thank you so much for this, Konami, and inb4 Kevin Tewart says "Japan did it.")--[[User:YamiWheeler|YamiWheeler]] ([[User talk:YamiWheeler|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/YamiWheeler|contribs]]) 19:16, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | :::But there's no OCG basis for an "Evilswarm" page. The "Evi" is just pointlessly added. --[[User:Golden Key|Golden Key]] ([[User talk:Golden Key|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Golden Key|contribs]]) 19:23, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ::::Or to put it another way, the TCG "lswarm" cards are exactly equivalent to the OCG "Verz" cards; the "Evilswarm" cards are just those cards which are "Verz" but not "Inverz". <span class="nowrap">「[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color:#00f;">ディノ</span><span style="color:#080;">奴</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color:#F90;">千？！</span>]]」<sup>[[wikipedia:Help:IJP|?]] · [[User talk:Dinoguy1000#top|☎ Dinoguy1000]]</sup></span> 20:01, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | :::::So "Evilswarm" doesn't even get a mention?--[[User:YamiWheeler|YamiWheeler]] ([[User talk:YamiWheeler|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/YamiWheeler|contribs]]) 20:03, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::I don't think anyone's saying that; we're just arguing against Evilswarm getting its own article. <span class="nowrap">「[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color:#00f;">ディノ</span><span style="color:#080;">奴</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color:#F90;">千？！</span>]]」<sup>[[wikipedia:Help:IJP|?]] · [[User talk:Dinoguy1000#top|☎ Dinoguy1000]]</sup></span> 20:14, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | :::::::I'm not campaigning for it to have its own article. I'm more concerned about the confusion that will spread if we refer to all "Evilswarm" cards as simply "lswarm" just because they're both "Verz" in the OCG.--[[User:YamiWheeler|YamiWheeler]] ([[User talk:YamiWheeler|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/YamiWheeler|contribs]]) 20:16, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ::: @''calling "lswarm" the same as "Verz" is wrong, because "Verz" is the name of the archetype in the OCG''
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| − | ::: From only looking at the effects of the cards, "イン'''ヴェルズ'''" (In'''verz''') and "ヴェルズ" (Verz) = "Stee'''lswarm'''" and "lswarm".
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| − | ::: When the OCG refers to a "Verz" card, it refers to both "Verz" and "Inverz". (as such, when the TCG refers to a "lswarm" card, it refers to both "lswarm" and "Steelswarm".)
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| − | ::: Evi is extra text, to make the card name easier to pronounce, none of the effects use it right?
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| − | ::: <span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva">-[[User:Falzar FZ|Falzar FZ]]- ([[User talk:Falzar FZ#top|talk page]]|[[User:Falzar FZ/Tips and Guides|useful stuff]])</span> 01:17, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | This also prevents [[Swarm of Scarabs]] and [[Swarm of Locusts]] from being lswarm support. [[User:Djjomon|Djjomon]] ([[User talk:Djjomon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Djjomon|contribs]]) 20:27, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | :::I can not find any official TCG source for the renaming from "Evilswarm" to "Lswarm". The archetype is still called "Evilswarm", despite they are related with "Steelswarm". You did not change Steelswarm to Lswarm, so why you did that with Evilswarm ? For example, Verz Zahhak in OCG is called "Evilswarm Zahak" (Duel Terminal 7) in TCG, not "Lswarm Zahak". So the archetype is Evilswarm. It's the same stupid action like you did with "Number 92: False Skeletal God Dragon, Heart-earth Dragon" that you have changed to "Number 92: Fake-Body God Dragon, Heart-eartH Dragon". There is no source for his TCG name, it's just because of a translation you did. Konami makes the card names for TCG, not you. Please stay by the truth.--[[User:TheGallisMan|TheGallisMan]] ([[User talk:TheGallisMan|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheGallisMan|contribs]]) 20:54, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ::::Actually, Verz Bahamut requires "lswarm" monsters. It's not much to go on but they're essentially saying that the archetype is in the "lswarm". It's unfortunate how it works out in English.[[User:BobaFett2 | BF2]] [[User talk:BobaFett2 | Talk]] [[Forum:Deck Guide | Deck Guides]] 21:05, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | :::::Ok, Gallis, let me try to explain this. In the ''OCG'', "Evilswarm" was known as "Verz" and "Steelswarm" was known as "Inverz". The "Inverz" came first. Due to the way archetype support works, all "Inverz" monsters implicitly became "Verz" monsters when the "Verz" support cards were released. Before "Verz" monsters came out in the ''OCG'', the ''TCG'' decided to call the "Inverz" monsters "Steelswarm". Remember, all "Inverz" monsters are "Verz" monsters, meaning all "Steelswarm" monsters are also "Evilswarm" monsters. But they do not have "Evilswarm" in their English names. Both "Steelswarm" and "Evilswarm" have "Lswarm" in their English names. That's where the name is coming from. "Evilswarm" still exists and should redirect here - because its the same thing as "Lswarm", just written a different way due to the way the ''TCG'' named it.
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| − | :::::Do you not understand how translation works? The Japanese name of Number 92 can be interpreted in different ways. There is ''no'' official translated name. There's an official, written Japanese name, that's it. Do you know where I get the idea to use "Fake Body"? From the same dude that originally gave us "False Skeletal", that's where. [[User:Cheesedude|Cheesedude]] ([[User talk:Cheesedude|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cheesedude|contribs]]) 21:50, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | :::::Following Cheesy's comment, do you remember "HERO" word? Stratos can searching ''any'' HERO monsters, reckless their looks; Evil, Masked, and ever Vision, and add it to the hand. That is identity way to this situation, "Lswarm" = "HERO", just without start word; such as "Stee-" or "Evi-", as they are treated in the same way as "Elemental", "Evil", etc. --<span style="font:10pt 'Bookman Old Style'">[[User:FredCat100/Smily Faces|<span style="color:#000">i</span>]][[User:FredCat100|<span style="font-size:13pt;color:#000">F</span>]][[User talk:FredCat100#top|<span style="color:#000">r</span>]][[User:FredCat100/friends|<span style="color:#000">e</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Ruling List|<span style="color:#000">d</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Disambiguation|<span style="font-size:13pt;color:#000">C</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Research|<span style="color:#000">a</span>]][[Special:Contributions/FredCat100|<span style="color:#000">t</span>]]</span> 22:12, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::Hmmm. I suggest we should call this "lswarm" and make a category "Evilswarm" and there we put the explainations of how Konami messed up with this. ----<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Caligraphy';">[[User:33royward|SharkTenjo]]</span> 01:36, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | == Actual nature of the Evilswarm Virus ==
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| − | What are the sources we have to know the backstory of the Verz (Sorry, hate translation Evilswarm) cards?
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| − | I mean, judging from [[Evilswarm Heliotrope|Verz Heliolope]], more than just being a virus born from the bodies of fallen Inverz monsters ([[Infestation Infection]]), it can be said that it is an infection that carries the soul and will of the Inverz, thus any monster infected by it, became a slave to their will.
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| − | For example in [[Trial and Tribulation]] we see [[Gishki Noellia]] mourning who seems to be [[Gishki Natalia]] before becoming a spirit, all these while the Verz Infection lurks around her, with none other than [[Steelswarm Hercules|Inverz Grez]] in the background, later the infection grows ([[Creeping Darkness]]) and she becomes half Evigishki half Verz ([[Evigishki Psychelone]]).
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| − | Another example is [[Constellar Meteor]] where we see [[Verz Castor|Constellar Castor]] charging against Evigishki Psychelone while the same Verz Infection (from Trial and Tribulation) seems to approach him.
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| − | So, more than just being a self-defense mecanism in case of extermination, the Verz Virus is actually the Souls of the Inverz searching for new bodies in order to fulfill their objectives.
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| − | I'm asking for opinions in this matter, in order to see how we can expand a little bit more the '''Story''' section in the page.
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| − | [[User:Kentaru Z|Kentaru Z]] ([[User talk:Kentaru Z|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kentaru Z|contribs]]) 23:44, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| − | ==Pollux/Castor==
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| − | I'm sick and tired of having to edit the table each time Pollux is designated as Castor's counterpart. The table is supposed to show the lswarm monsters and their original counterparts. This isn't the case for Castor and Pollux because they're two different entities; in the Duel Terminal storyline, Castor is the brother of Pollux, who got corrupted by the lswarm virus.
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| − | :Edit: apologies if this doesn't improve the article for a bit. [[User:ChaosGallade|ChaosGallade]] ([[User talk:ChaosGallade|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ChaosGallade|contribs]]) 16:44, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
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| − | :I am also got tired of that <censor> - Pollux and Castor are indeed twin brothers (since they have same building, except for their helm) and are separate monsters. --<span style="font:10pt 'Bookman Old Style'">[[User:FredCat100/Smily Faces|<span style="color:#000">i</span>]][[User:FredCat100|<span style="font-size:13pt;color:#000">F</span>]][[User talk:FredCat100#top|<span style="color:#000">r</span>]][[User:FredCat100/friends|<span style="color:#000">e</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Ruling List|<span style="color:#000">d</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Disambiguation|<span style="font-size:13pt;color:#000">C</span>]][[User:FredCat100/Research|<span style="color:#000">a</span>]][[Special:Contributions/FredCat100|<span style="color:#000">t</span>]]</span> 16:51, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
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| − | == Evilswarm Page Overhaul ==
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| − | So I was reading through this article recently and this article is very, very outdated. It doesn't seem like the bulk of this article has been edited in about three years. There are a lot of mentions of decks that simply don't exist anymore: Agents, Chaos Dragons, Naturia etc that should be replaced with more modern mentions (good examples are: Blue-Eyes, Kozmo, Metalfoes, D/D/D, Lightsworn etc). In addition, many of the cards and variants mentioned should just be completely scrapped: the Chaos Zone version of the deck doesn't work now that we only have 1 Dimensional Fissure and 1 Macro Cosmos, Golem and Coppelia are extremely terrible cards in the deck, and many of the recommended cards (Hraesvelg, Azzathoth, Salamandra, BLS, Kagetokage, Vylon Disigma, the Evolzars, D.D.R.) are just going to actively make the deck worse. This isn't a good thing for someone who wants to build the deck and finds all of this only to realize his deck is rather bad.
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| − | The weaknesses section also needs a serious clean-up. Some points:
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| − | -The deck has no serious weakness to Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror, in part because Castor's and Ophion's main effects cannot be negated by it and Infestation Pandemic will keep it from working.
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| − | -The effect negation point should be replaced with relevant cards (although Forbidden Chalice is fine) like Breakthrough Skill, Phantom Knights' Fog Blade, and Fiendish Chain.
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| − | -Ghost Ogre and Snow Rabbit needs to be mentioned. Chaining it to Ophion leaves the deck with very few options to get around it.
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| − | -Remove the mention of Luminious Soldier and Genex Ally Duradark. The former was never, ever, used and the latter hasn't been used for years.
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| − | -The Constellar point should be a general mention of Xyz decks that don't rely on higher level monsters, since there are many Rank 4 options that will out Ophion easily.
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| − | -Mystical Fairy Elfuria should be replaced by Flying "C", since it doesn't require protection and a well-placed Flying "C" will shut down this deck extremely easily.
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| − | -A mention needs to be made for this deck's weakness to monster removal: Kaijus utterly bone this deck and are an extremely common side deck staple, and the deck does not have any real method to regain hand advantage
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| − | There is probably more that can be said but I'm not familiar with wiki editing myself so I figured I'd at least bring it to the community's attention. This deck will always have some popularity thanks to Ophion's memeworthy effect so I think its pertinent that it be kept up to date.[[User:Admiral Emi|Admiral Emi]] ([[User talk:Admiral Emi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Admiral Emi|contribs]]) 14:12, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
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