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[[User:Dr Kain|Dr Kain]] ([[User talk:Dr Kain|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dr Kain|contribs]]) 15:21, August 24, 2012 (UTC)
::::I doubt all archetype support cards are even used in competitive decks, besides they have a search card in the form of a trap, what else do you want? They also have somewhat universal tuners, and other general Synchro support cards. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva">-[[User:Dark Ace SP|<span style="color:Black;">Dark </span><span style="color:DarkSlateGray">Ace SP</span>]] ([[User_talk:Dark Ace SP|<span style="color:LightSlateGray;">Talk</span>]])</span> 22:35, August 24, 2012 (UTC)
You all have good points. But I don't see the point. I put effort into a deck and grow personal attachment and I have to go and play a new deck just because that's what's "in" and waste my money? All because they rendered my deck useless through the banlist? That seems even more stupid in an economic sense. Sorry, I don't play that game. If they want me to try a new deck, they're gonna have to give me a more sensible reason then "if you don't do it we'll eventually make your deck unusable via banlist". That's why a lot of my friends switched to Magic. They thought the whole economic set up of Yugioh was plain stupid. It's my favorite deck that they've taken, but I have others. For example, I like my Cyber Dragons, Nordics and Photons. It didn't take a ban list to make me play them, they simply made their style of play interesting. But if you don't get to use your favorite cards, what's the point in it really?
And NO 1 metal does NOT work in any form of disaster dragon deck. I dare any of you to prove me wrong on that, I highly doubt you'll find a way to make a good disaster deck without at least 2 metals. I'm sorry I have the sensibility to NOT buy more cards just because the ban list likes to be a pain in the arse. I stick to what I like, and that's what I duel with. Now when DP Kite comes out I may have a reason to actually buy something fun and play again. Until then, I'm dropping this game for awhile. I don't know how old you guys are, but seriously, you're gonna buy all new cards, make a whole new deck and invest time and money JUST because of the banlist? Seriously? I've never done that before. Won't start now. Meanwhile, I DON'T buy and replace, or invest time into making a new deck. I save time and money. Plain and simple. Just thought I'd make my opinion known and go against the norm. It's also sad to watch the older players bully the younger players over the ban list. You shouldn't go running around telling a poor nine year old kid that something's banned so they can't play until they change it. (Someone I know did this to a young kid at our local playing ground and made the poor twerp cry) It just looks pathetic that someone would give that much of a rip over a piece of paper. If that's you, I apologize in advance for most likely offending you. And just food for thought: If they printed a card just to make it unusable at some point later in time, why print it all and for us, why buy it at all? Answer me that and I'll admit I'm wrong. Until I get a reasonable answer, I stand by my opinion. --[[Special:Contributions/66.91.199.222|66.91.199.222]] ([[User talk:66.91.199.222|talk]]) 06:49, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
:You can blame Konami for trying to make money and all, but hey facts are facts. Metal wasn't super fair in any way, easy to summon, 2800 ATK, summons another beater to the field for free. Yeah, and it took the loop of Lightpulsar Dragon to make Konami hit it, you can also blame Konami for making Lightpulsar Dragon, but the thing isn't very overpowered or crazy without a consistent Metal in the grave, and 1 Metal achieves that, and 0 FF means there isn't a quick way to dump that and other dragons into the grave. But if you want to look at things positively, you can always use Foolish Burial or Dragon Ravine? Not super playable, but doable. Also, if you don't like what Konami did (Most people actually like what Konami did this format), go play Magic like your friends (Or if you want something like YGO, see Cardfight Vanguard), and stop complaining, instead of trying to make a case here about how Konami took your money and then made your deck horrible. It's what has happened to a bunch of decks in the past, and I don't see why the newer Dragons that top tournaments and take Top 32 spots should be exempt from that. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva">-[[User:Dark Ace SP|<span style="color:Black;">Dark </span><span style="color:DarkSlateGray">Ace SP</span>]] ([[User_talk:Dark Ace SP|<span style="color:LightSlateGray;">Talk</span>]])</span> 22:35, August 24, 2012 (UTC)
==Gadjiltron's Opinions==
*I'm sad that FF is gone but it needed to go, sure they could have just done away with Five Headed but it was also being abused by Heroes as well. Plus for Cyber Dragon and Worm decks it could be used in much the same way for an OTK. I'm hoping they release a less broken version of FF so cards like Worm Zero and Cyber End Dragon are playable again at some point.--[[User:The FireFALL|The FireFALL]] ([[User talk:The FireFALL|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/The FireFALL|contribs]]) 00:08, August 24, 2012 (UTC)
6 Cards which DO NOT Deserve to be on the LIST:
1) Black Whirlwind: Wind-Up Factory's Unlimited, so making Black Whirlwind 2 would make the tournament scene far more competitive
2) Infernity Launcher: Rather than ban Wind-Up Zenmaity, a better idea(in my opinion) would be to Semi, or even De-Limit Launcher. That way, Wind-Up duelists would think before sending cards to the Graveyard
3) Charge of the Light Brigade: It would be fair, because by banning Chaos Sorcerer, Lightsworn has already been hit, so it would be best to even it out by de-Limiting this Card.
4) Rescue Cat: If Rabbit is Semi-Limited, why not Rescue Cat?
5 ) Fishborg Blaster: Now that Brionac, the go-to Synchro is gone, why keep Blaster Forbidden? I would still like to see some Coelecanth builds give a fight, so the best way to make Fish competitive is this
6) Mind Master: Mind Master has some awesome combos, but keeping it Limited would be fair, and also would give a boost to Psychic
In my opinion, these changes would break the monopoly of the Big 4 and revive Synchro summons, which seemingly everybody has forgotten!
Nowadays, [[Rescue Cat]] should NEVER come back, particularly with 2 [[Summoner Monk]]. You could even spam it repeatedly in a single turn with [[Unifolia, Holy Spirit of the Forest]]. [[Special:Contributions/108.196.206.15|108.196.206.15]] ([[User talk:108.196.206.15|talk]]) 12:35, August 26, 2012 (UTC)
: Saying Launcher needs to come at 2 is like saying Gateway needs to come at two (both decks are still very playable). Rescue Cat could come back. People need to stop thinking about the worst-case scenario of bringing a card back. So it can make good plays; so what? Last time I checked Dino Rabbits, Chaos Dragons, Wind-Ups, and HEROs can make good plays. Rescue Cat would help out what? X-Sabers, Gladiator Beasts, and Flamvell Cat? Oh TOTALLY top-tier. And on top of that, Pot of Avarice is at 1, Goyo, Brionac, Giant Trunade, Cold Wave, and Oppression are banned, priority is gone, and Solemn Warning exists. But yes, now Summoner Monk is at 2, Call of the Haunted is at 3, and Rescue Rabbit around could give a whole different deck idea with Rescue Cat. Overall, am I worried about some broken plays? yeah. But I'm worried about broken plays with Infernities and Six Samurais too. Am I worried about Rescue Cat breaking the meta? NO.
|<font style="background-color:black">[[User:Yugioh DED|<span style="color:red;"><big>''DED''</big></span>]][[User talk:Yugioh DED|<span style="color:red;"><small> (Leaving Me Messages Are Often Left Here)</small></span>]]</font> 19:33, August 26, 2012 (UTC)
However, something as sick as Summoner Monk > Second Summoner Monk > Rescue Cat > Tribute Rescue Cat > 2 Unifolias > Tribute Unifolia > Rescue Cat > Tribute Rescue Cat > 2 Airbellums > Tribute Second Unifolia > Rescue Cat (XYZ the Summoner Monks by this point) > Tribute Rescue Cat > Third Airbellum and Third Unifolia > Tribute Third Unifolia > Rescue Cat > Tribute Rescue Cat > 2 Vanilla Beasts if you run Rabbit > XYZ the Beasts OR Synchro with the Airbellums > (XYZ) Leviair > use Leviarir > Grab Banished Rabbit > Win. NVM. As fun as that sounds, keep Rescue Cat banned.
|<font style="background-color:black">[[User:Yugioh DED|<span style="color:red;"><big>''DED''</big></span>]][[User talk:Yugioh DED|<span style="color:red;"><small> (Leaving Me Messages Are Often Left Here)</small></span>]]</font> 21:19, August 26, 2012 (UTC)
== Creative Solutions ==
For those with a Chaos Dragon deck, I highly suggest watching duels played by Winston. He ran a deck without Future Fusion to begin with, and it ran beautifully. Granted, the deck was hit by the banlist ever so slightly with the banning of Metals, semi limiting of Tour, and the limiting of Sorcerer. But since some people seem worked up over the list, I figured I'd try to help out a bit.
'''Monsters'''
Darkflare Dragon: Yeah... That kinda sucked didn't it? Chaos down to 1 and Metals to 1. Not hopeless though and depending on your style of play, not a problem at all! This is just me, but put a third Darkflare in for where the second Metal went if you ran three. With Future gone, you have to find more innovative ways to mill and this is pinpoint and hits what you want. Yes, it's slower but there's a reason for this. For example, discard Wyvern if it's in your hand. Wyvern goes off, remove the 1 Metal or any other large beat stick of your choice. Put any dragon of your choice in grave. Banish Wyvern, hello Metal. Summon Metal, revive larger dragon. This is only one of several things you can do with a Darkflare so having three is nice. Plus, he's level 5 which makes him nice and flexible for synchro summons.
Divine Dragon Appocralyph: A lot of people will tell you a lot of things about this guy. I know a good friend of mine LOVES to loop LaDD with this thing and trust me, once that loop really gets going it sucks. But for today, Divine's purpose is to fish out of the grave. He's a walking Monster Reincarnation in monster form. Meaning, I can use him more than once if I'm lucky. You know that annoying thorn in your side duelist who just blew up your Metal but failed to remove it? With this, it's very easy to get him back. Just discard 1 to get him back. He's a great replacement for your 2nd Chaos Sorcerer. Nowhere near as good, but he'll add an the chance to recycle in your deck which can come in handy if you enjoy milling.
Morphing Jar: Many won't believe me when I say this, but this thing is pretty freakin' useful in a deck like this. For the big plays, you tend to use up most of your hand. You probably only have monsters you seriously couldn't use or spell and trap cards that don't do much. Set them if you need them later, and set Jar. Maybe leave one card in your hand for dumping into the grave for a chaos summon. They flip Jar, you let lose its effect and hopefully they had a lot of cards in your hand and you didn't. Then, they lose cards while you barely lost anything on top of replenishing your hand.
Summoner Monk: With Tour Guide down to 2, it can be useful to make sure you can keep up the same kind of monster summoning speed. So, we use Monk. If you run Wyverns they're the perfect target. Get them out, overlay, Utopia right there. And if they make you detach, you can easily send Wyvern to the grave and start things up easy.
Tragoedia: Saved my bacon against someone. Great replacement for the third Metal. Take battle damage, he can either be the impregnable wall, or just sit there as an extra thorn in the enemy's side. His level adjustment ability can be useful, but he also serves to keep the light and dark ratio somewhat even.
Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon: The card that everyone takes one look at and goes, "Oh boy, here we go" but it does work in a deck of this nature. Most big time game enders have 3000+ ATK points. So, Galaxy-Eyes can either stalemate, or hop over them with his effect. That and he dodges some of the more annoying traps so he functions as an excellent decoy. On top of that, he creates another target for Wyvern which ups its usefulness when ran at 2.
Queen Dragun Djinn: For those who don't run her, she might be useful as an extra decker. She can't perfectly mimic Metal, but she can bring things back from the grave for the more special forms of summoning like xyz and synchros. Depending on how you wanna play, she can serve as useful retriever for your deck. Her monster form, Lady of D. could potentially be used but I'd say it's not a very good idea. You can totally side deck it if you feel the need to use it since its walling can help with setting up (especially since you can easily discard things you want in the grave from your hand if they try to destroy her).
Other recommendations: For those who haven't already been, run those Lightsworns. Without Future, we need those things and anything that takes things out of our deck to set up the grave. Lyla and Ryko being the most important as they help with field control. Additionally, look into Card Trooper, who can mill and/or go for the suicidal bomb or wall for a free draw. It doesn't hurt. Also, for those synchro fans out there, run Veiler at 2 and use 1 Fabled Raven. It will cut down your defenses slightly but you also get the advantage of possibly discard something to the grave to set up for a summon, and you can adjust its level as you please. Used right, it can be quite the trouble maker.
'''Spells'''
D.D.R. - Different Dimension Reincarnation: Dragon users everywhere (where I live and beyond) raged when Future Fusion went away. Hard. It's not the end of the world though. That just means you have to use alternate means to mill (as said above) and now, you can get more creative and perhaps even add a card in that wasn't in your deck before that could improve it. This card for example, works nicely for a deck that banishes so very often. Since you'll be banishing a lot, you always want a back up in case your opponent banishes the cards you seriously need. This just provides a little insurance that you're favorite beat sticks aren't going anywhere.
Gold Sarcophagus: For those who just don't wanna let the Lightsworns hog all the glory. This lets you search for whatever you want too. So it's slightly better, albeit slower.
Pot of Avarice: Many will say, "What are you thinking?!" like Galaxy-Eyes but it does work. There will inevitably be times when you overmill and leave yourself dangerous close to deck out. This at least may buy you extra turns and depending on how bleak the situation is- more cards to your hand. Heck, maybe you just wanna reuse some things for kicks. It just gives you something useful- options.
Lightning Vortex: Puts things in grave, blows stuff up. Self-explanatory. Dark Hole better be in the deck before you put this in, but it serves as excellent insurance that you have a second means of destroying monsters if your having a bad spell and trap only hand day.
'''Traps'''
While I did recommend Winston's build as a model, he did not use traps. I am simply adding this section for those who feel they need that extra protection traps provide and may not exactly know what to go with. Traps I found to work well include,
Solemn Judgment: Standard, ultimate nope button.
Solemn Warning: Standard staple, but really important for certain decks that you may run into.
Fiendish Chain: It can either halt a really large threat, and/or halt a really annoying effect. Either way, this thing's awesome.
Call of the Haunted: Just because one Monster Reborn isn't enough. This may be crucial now since we lost 2 Metals but again, there are ways around that problem.
'''Disclaimer'''
I'm by no means a pro, and these are just cards I have experimented with and found to work well against even bigger decks like Heroes and Galdiator Beasts (Oh how I hate those things). I'm just saying, even with Future banned and two Metals gone with the wind, there're still ways to make this deck work. People were really upset when some of their dragon decks were killed by the loss of Future. So, I thought I'd try and help out a little. For the poor guy further up who lost his deck to the banlist... My condolences dude, but you should try Chaos Dragons. If your favorite cards were lights or darks, this just might work for ya. Even then, I would say I proved you wrong: it may not be disaster, but it's still a good dragon deck. --[[User:DaemonNova|DaemonNova]] ([[User talk:DaemonNova|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DaemonNova|contribs]]) 10:25, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
I really don't see where you get off telling someone they are lazy because they don't like a game anymore when cards they like get banned.
I probably will stop playing in a few days when Brio is banned or just not conform to the new banlist. It's not like I play at many tournaments anymore. I jumped through hoops to get my cards, and I don't want to just put it in the binder for the next forever, just like I did with trish, all because they make an archetype that is easily abused by it. Besides they could have created other solutions they have just gotten used to banning/limiting any thing that causes an uproar. I have never lost to a rabbit deck with my samurai deck (Though my samurai deck was left untouched by the ban list). As far as that would leave me concerned they clearly didn't need semi-limited, but other players didn't feel that way.
As for top decks being hit, they have alternatives to weaken a deck without out right banning (or limiting) their most useful cards. They can errata them or try and balance the environment by releasing new card for other archetypes (the latter is not the best option but what ever).
Also telling someone they should conform to the game is never right. It's a game not a war it should be about fun, but it never is.
Enjoy your new banlist :D
[[User:Kordeleski|Kordeleski]] ([[User talk:Kordeleski|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kordeleski|contribs]]) 22:57, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
:Errata is only used to correct mistakes or make cards easier to understand, it will never be used to make cards more fair, only the banlist has the right to make the game fair. Well, if you don't conform to the game, just play traditional, if you play advanced you need to conform, there is that option for people who hate their card getting hit. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva">-[[User:Dark Ace SP|<span style="color:Black;">Dark </span><span style="color:DarkSlateGray">Ace SP</span>]] ([[User_talk:Dark Ace SP|<span style="color:LightSlateGray;">Talk</span>]])</span> 23:27, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
:: Didn't they errata [[Necrovalley]] so that cards can remove them selves from the graveyard (though not banish)?
:: I was not saying that is something they are doing, I said it was an alternative to keep cards people like in the game. They didn't have to release trade toad. They could have just changed its name and art to substitoad, but they didn't.
[[User:Kordeleski|Kordeleski]] ([[User talk:Kordeleski|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kordeleski|contribs]]) 00:55, August 31, 2012 (UTC)
:::From the wide differences in effects between [[Tradetoad]] and [[Substitoad]], it would be much more confusing if it got errata'd to such a completely different effect. Just play Traditional if you want to play banned cards. [[Special:Contributions/108.196.206.15|108.196.206.15]] ([[User talk:108.196.206.15|talk]]) 10:16, August 31, 2012 (UTC)
The effect of Necrovalley has never changed. Only the wording, to make it more clear what the card does. [[User:Lappyzard|Lappyzard]] ([[User talk:Lappyzard|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lappyzard|contribs]]) 15:52, August 31, 2012 (UTC)
