Forum:Self-serchers: What's the point?

I'm not talking about the monsters that can only search for another copy of itself, I'm talking about the duelists who put in three copies of cards like Toon Table of Contents or Gravekeeper's Spy just to search for themselves, and call it a "deck-thinning engine". Just...why? There's so many other cards out there that could make deck-thinning more practical, yet these guys choose a single card that likely would have no other use in their deck but to search for itself, thinking that would make their deck thinner. I find it wasteful, myself; not only are you stuffing your deck with otherwise-useless cards, but since those cards can only search for themselves, you can't actually use them to get any of the other cards in your deck that you need. In my opinion, you'd have better draw and deck-thinning power taking those cards out, entirely. Hell, there's deck-thinning cards out there that people are already using in their decks that actually fits it; Zombies have Pyramid Turtle, Plants have Lonefire Blossom, insects have Howling Insect, even Flamvell Firedog makes more sense, since at least it has more targets that it can get.

I'm not saying that self-searchers are bad; I can see the use of a card like Reborn Tengu, for instance. But since most self-searchers are situational to their own archetype, putting them into a deck other than their own archetype and calling it a "deck-thinning engine" makes no sense to me. Any thoughts on this matter? SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 13:31, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

a 2k def monster is likely to stay on the field after being flipped, so in the end you have 2 monsters for use. Being it tribute, stall or other things, spy is nowhere near useless. Else, others serve also at least as synchro/tribute fodder or something, you can do so much with those searchers. -dest- (talk • contribs) 15:46, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

But that's my point; there's so many other cards that can fill the role, why would you need to spam Spy in a non-Gravekeeper's deck? And what about Toon Table of Contents? As a Spell, it has none of the benefits you attribute to Spy, and no one plays cards like Chiron the Mage anymore that might be useful with TToC, but it's spammed outside of a Toon deck just as much as Spy is. I'm just saying that it seems rather wasteful to use those particular cards instead of looking for other, better alternatives that might more likely benefit the kind of deck you're making. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 16:14, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Toon table of contents works well in spellcasters, after getting rid of all, just add gemini elf (toon). Also works for gaining spell counters. Throwing in cards to deck out engine is how decks are made these days. Look at Card Trooper. People summon it on first turn just to mill, even if no attack can be made. Self Deck thinning is great in this format for a larger graveyard means monster reborn, call of the haunted and other graveyard bound cards work faster. >.> 178.191.41.73 (talk) 16:51, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

If you run TToC outside of Toons or Exodia FTK, you're doing it wrong. As for GK Spy and most other self-searchers, people run it because it fills the most basic of all Yugioh theory: a plus 1. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 16:53, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

They made a special card for Spellcasters that works like that. It's called "Gather Your Mind" and "Spell Power Grasp". See? This is what I'm talking about; there's two perfectly good cards with a similar effect to TToC that people are ignoring for no reason, and there's no reason for them to be using TToC in that kind of a deck, so what's the logic behind it?

And at least with Card Trooper, it has the added benefit of draw power; what added benefit is there to having just 3 Gravekeeper's Spy or 3 TToC? What "+1 advantage" do you get from Gravekeeper's Spy, outside of a Gravekeeper's deck? Reborn Tengu, yes, I can agree with you on that (even though I don't buy into the whole advantage BS), but Spy? I'm sorry, I still don't get it. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 17:18, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

• That's because you don't understand the basic theory of advantage. It's a +1 because it Special Summons another of itself without you giving up any other cards to do it. At worst, it's a 1-for-1 - if it gets destroyed by battle, you still summon another.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 17:37, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

• Gravekeeper's Spy was never used just to "thin the deck." Even in non-Gravekeeper Decks, it would be used as Tribute Fodder or Synchro Material after summoning another copy of itself. As for cards like Toon Table of Contents, they would often be used in decks that were trying to thin themselves in order to draw particular cards. Often, FTK or Exodia Decks. In that situation, Toon Table is a fantastic card because it had a lot of synergy with Royal Magical Library, another popular card for older FTKs/Exodia builds.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 17:32, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

And again I have to ask: why not go with other, more compatible cards instead of cards that are clearly not meant to be used in a deck other than their own archetype? Again, you can easily replace TToC with Gather Your Mind and/or Spell Power Grasp and have the same effect; hell, SPG would be SUPERIOR to TToC, in this case, since it could nab your RML TWO counters for the price of one card, and what was that about "plus one advantage"? And again, there's plenty of searchers that go with the typical decks that uses Gravekeeper's Spy as a thinner that would do just as well, if not better, and wasn't Reborn Tengu supposed to be the "superior" Spy, in this case? No, I'm sorry, but I don't buy it, I don't get it, and honestly I think it's stupid and wasteful. If you want TToC for your Exodia Draw engine, or Spy for your other decks, just look for the damn alternatives and keep those in their own decks.

And I know the "basic theory of advantage", and I think it's total BS: "advantage" is that any card you use, even if it's to activate itself, is a -1 unless the gain offsets the loss. It's the idea that the card you're playing ITSELF is a -1 that I don't buy; you cannot and will not gain any "advantage" with the card's effect if you don't play it, so saying it's part of the loss just by playing it is stupid. In my opinion, the COST for activating said card should be considered in the equation, not the card itself, so a Pot of Greed in my opinion is a +2, NOT a +1, while a card like Horn of Heaven breaks even (the cost of Tributing a card to negate the summon of another).SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 17:46, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

• That's nice, but that's not how it works. It's a -1 because you LOSE one card from your hand to activate, obviously. That's the whole premise of the system. That's like saying that you don't think that B coming after A is logical, so you want the whole alphabet changed. Also, how is Gather your Mind a bigger advantage? Note that the last Gather your Mind is worthless once you search the first two. Toon Table of Contents' last copy can search out another "Toon" card, including Toon World, or Toon Cannon Soldier, so, no, you're wrong. Also, Reborn Tengu is a NEW card. Gravekeeper's Spy being used in those types of decks is an old example. Finally, why can't people use cards in a deck that isn't based on that archetype? That's not how Yu-Gi-Oh! works. There's no rule against me running Gravekeeper's Spy in Chaos if I wanted to, and there's nothing wrong with it at all. Using cards in that manner is what separates good players from bad ones. Shows they can think beyond what's written on the card.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 17:52, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you "lose" the card you're activating, so that makes it a -1? I don't think so. Why the hell is Pot of Greed considered a +1 if the only card you use up to activate its effect is Pot of Greed itself?! That doesn't make sense, now does it? Or I guess it does, if you're bad at math. Again, explain to me how activating the card itself is a loss to advantage, if you cannot gain the advantage of the card effect WITHOUT activating it.

As for TToC being "superior" to Gather Your Mind in a Spellcaster deck, who in the hell would put a Toon in a Spellcaster deck? Not once have I seen a Spellcaster deck that uses Toon anything, other than TToC to search out itself, not even Toon Gemini Elf. What you just described is how TToC would work in a Toon deck, not in an actual non-Toon deck like people put them in. So what exactly are you arguing, here? At least you have a Gather your Mind in reserve for when you need it, and with Spell Power Grasp, you can get three counters with just TWO cards instead of the three you'd need with TToC.

What you aren't getting, is that some cards just don't work well outside of their own archetype, and if the card effect specifically is designed to work for that archetype, and that the only use it has outside of that archetype is to search for itself, then what sense does it make to use it outside of that archetype? You don't see Fabled monsters in an Anti-Meta deck, do you? Or Machina Fortress in a Perfect Herald deck. You certainly wouldn't see me using Crystal Tree in my Tiger deck, just to get out Topaz Tiger. With cards like Card Trooper or Ryko, their effects are generic enough that you CAN use them in other decks without having them be restricted to affecting their own copies, and again, there are plenty of searchers catered to the specific decks that use Spy and TToC that people aren't using, searchers that would likely be better for that particular deck than what the tournament decks say they should be using. Yes, that's right, I'm calling this use of Spy and TToC ELITIST, because while they might've been "innovative" when they were first released, considering the myriad of cards at our disposal to choose from, NOT looking for alternatives to them in your decks makes duelists more narrow-minded and their decks less creative than using them. All I'm saying is actually LOOK at your options before defaulting to these cards, and you might find cards that better suit your needs. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs)

• Ugh, what is it with you and ungodly amounts of text? tl;dr. There's no point trying to explain anything to a brick wall.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 18:19, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Here's the gist: if the card's effect is solely constructed to only work with its own archetype, taking it out of that archetype to use with itself as a "deck-thinning engine" is stupid and needs to be stopped, and counting the card being activated as part of your card loss when calculating advantage is stupid, because without activating that card, you cannot reap its benefits. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 18:39, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

You lose the card you activate. Let's use Meteor of Destruction as an example. I have six cards in hand. I activate Meteor of Destruction. Now I have five cards in hand. Five is one less than 6. Pot of Greed is a plus 1. Do the math. You start with 6 cards. You activate Pot of Greed and Draw 2. You now have 7 cards. 7-6=1. Also, as many people have said repeatedly before, TToC is used in FTK decks, emphasis on the FIRST turn kill. You can only use 1 Gather Your Mind or Spell Power Grasp per turn. You can use all 3 TToC in the same turn, get Toon Blue-Eyes and then use it with Trade-In. And now with Gravekeeper's Spy: I have one monster. Now I have 2. I did not lose anything in the process. That's a plus one. Reborn Tengu may be superior, but what if I want to use GK Spy AND Reborn Tengu? Oh, and one Tengu costs 12 bucks minimum. GK Spy is a Structure Deck common, and is worth about 50 cents. Not everyone who plays this game has a hundred bucks to spend on cards. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 18:51, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Again, what use is the card if you're going to label it as a "loss" if you play it? Let me make this very clear: YOU CANNOT GAIN THE EFFECTS OF THE CARD WITHOUT PLAYING IT'. You do NOT "lose" the card simply because it leaves your hand, because you're ACTIVATING it, and therefore GAINING ITS EFFECTS. You CANNOT draw cards with Pot of Greed without playing it, so why even count it as a loss? That's what I'm saying, it's stupid thinking about advantage like that; by that logic, you should NEVER play ANY of your cards, because you'll "lose" them as soon as you play them, and the name of the game, at least in the elitist mind, is to NOT lose hand advantage, right?

Second, TToC gets used up in a turn, anyway, and after that, what use do you have of it? All three are in your graveyard. I don't care if it's a FTK or not, it makes no sense to use that card in that kind of deck, when it's not even catered to said deck.

Finally, I never said you HAD to use Reborn Tengu, I said that there were OTHER options out there than just Spy that you can find, and in fact, I listed quite a few of them out there, like Lonefire Blossom for Plants or Pyramid Turtle for Zombies. Are you really so blinded to anything other than this one particular card that you refuse to even entertain the notion of the myriad OTHER searchers out there that you can use? If so, I have to say YOU are the ones that are the bad duelists, not me.

Maybe if I explained myself better; I have a beast deck, so for me, Gravekeeper's spy would not be of any use for me; it ca only search for itself, so once all three copies of itself are used up, that's it, I can't use it for any other searching. If I put in Giant Rat, though, then I can get somewhere, since not only can it search out for itself, but I can use it to search out for several other cards in my deck, giving me more options for using it than what I would have with Spy. See what I mean? WIth spy/TToC, they give you less options to work with than most other searchers, if used outside of their own archetypes, and THAT is what I'm arguing against, the illogical theory that they are somehow "superior", because they can only search for themselves. Of course, my pet peeve also extends to generic searchers when people use them JUST to search for themselves, and not any of their other monsters, because it winds up with the same problem; you're wasting the card that way. Basically, what I'm saying is, unless the card is specifically designed so it searches ONLY for itself (like Tengu or Giant Germ or something), don't use generic or archetype searchers like Giant Rat or Spy JUST to search for themselves, especially outside of the archetype if it's an archetype searcher. It's wasteful and doesn't make any sense. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 18:59, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Let me make THIS very clear: Anyone who has ever played this game is aware that you have to play a card to get the effect. But by your math, if you start with 6 cards, and get a plus 2 off Pot of Greed, you end with 8 cards. This is not the case. You end with 7. You do not "lose" the card by playing it. You lose a card, and the number of cards you have is the only thing that determines card advantage.

It makes perfect sense to use Toon Table of Contents in an FTK deck, because FTK decks rely on specific cards. By using cards that get themselves out of the deck, you reduce the effective deck total. What if I ran a five card deck, with only Exodia pieces? I'd win every time, right? The purpose of deck thinning cards is to get closer to that five card ideal. By playing 3 TToC and a Toon monster, you've effectively reduced your deck to 36 cards.

The problem with calling us elitist by citing Lonefire Blossom as an alternative, is that Lonefire Blossom is one of the most popular cards out there, even more so than Reborn Tengu. If anything, YOU are elitist for saying Lonefire Blossom is a better card. Finally, if you've paid any attention to the top 32 decklists at any YCS, you'll notice the decks that top are the innovative ones that use other, often unknown cards. People used to never run GK Guard in GKs, until they topped running one. Now everyone runs one. The very cards that you're writing off as elitist have not seen top play outside of their own decks in ages. Thus, the cards are not elitist, they are noob mistakes. Finally, calm down. I am politely explaining to you the concept of card advantage, and you are raging at me and calling me an idiot and an elitist, neither of which I am. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 19:22, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

And again I say, if you're so damned concerned about "losing" cards by playing them, you shouldn't be playing them. If by playing them you lose 1 card automatically, and that's such a big goddamn concern to you, then DON'T PLAY THEM, pure and simple. Though now I see why you guys are insistent on this; you count advantage by numbers, NOT on actual advantage, as in how it benefits you. By your twisted logic, the numbers for playing Horn of Heaven means you lose 2 cards to the opponent's 1, whereas i see it as stopping a potential threat by sacrificing one monster, a monster I might've lost anyway if I had let the summoning go through, or a weaker one that was just being used for stalling. It's all numbers and statistics for you elitists, whereas I look on the more practical and pragmatic side of "advantage".

Can't you do that with ANY OTHER COMBO AVAILABLE TO THAT DECK?! Why MUST it be THAT PARTICULAR CARD? If you can answer me that, then I'll concede, but thus far no one's given me jack to work with on that.

And I have every right to call them elitist, because I KEEP on seeing them whenever I look at a cookie cutter tournament deck; the last tournament I went to locally, which was a month ago, had TToC in it as a draw engine, and it WASN'T a FTK deck, so how the hell can you tell me that they're "noob mistakes" instead of elitist cards? Seriously, you're talking out of your ass, at this point. Hell, I've seen LESS of Lonefire Blossom than I ever have TToC and Gravekeeper's Spy, so don't you tell me I dunno what I'm talking about. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 19:35, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Card Advantage and what benefits you get are not the same thing. You are treating them as if they are. Sometimes it is worth taking a minus.

Some decks do not have an engine available for that purpose. Others have a weak engine that isn't enough.

The top 32 at a YCS can be considered the best decks in the country. Locals don't mean very much. If you are seeing them at your locals, then it either means people are making a mistake in building their deck or they can't afford Pot of Duality and are using TToC as a substitute. Lonefire Blossom saw a TON of play at the last YCS.

Once again, please stop talking down to me. I have not said anything insulting and I am making an effort to remain calm, while you are insulting my intelligence as well as my pride as a duelist. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 19:44, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not; that's how you guys are treating it. No, seriously, whenever you guys talk about the benefits of a card, it ALWAYS steers toward advantage, like they WERE the same thing, so I'm not the one making this assumption. And I still don't see the point in saying you "lose" a card by playing it, as if the loss is so goddamn detrimental that you almost shouldn't, because that's how Advantage is being talked about; as if playing the card and "losing" it so offsets the benefits you gain from it, that it's almost NOT worth playing.

And does that justify using TToC or Spy as a filler? I don't think so; as I said, why bother with a thinning engine that JUST searches for itself, especially outside of a deck that WOULD benefit from it? It's like using Imperial Iron Wall in a D.D. deck, it doesn't make any sense.

They DID have Duality, yet they still used TToC in the deck, so I'm still not seeing it.SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 19:55, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

After playing a card, you don't have it anymore. No one has said that not having that card anymore means you shouldn't play it, other than you. You are the only person who has said anything of the kind.

Yes, using a speed engine in a slow deck is perfectly justified. If the deck's slowness is a weakness, you counteract that by adding cards to speed it up; cards that get free summons like GK Spy and cards that reduce your effective deck total like TToC.

If some one is playing Duality and TToC and it's not Toons or Exodia FTK, then all I can say is they built their deck wrong. Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 20:04, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

No, because each time I hear people argue advantage and the usefulness of a card, they talk about how the loss of the card is so goddamn vital to the equation, like it's almost too costly to play even if there is NO cost to it. I'm sorry, I just find absolutely no use in putting such emphasis on card numbers and completely ignore it, so if you don't like it, agree to disagree and go away.

And again, if there are other options to fill the void other than those cards, WHY INSIST ON USING THOSE CARDS INSTEAD OF THE ALTERNATIVES?! NO ONE yet has given me a good reason for it, so until they do, I'm assuming there is NO reason other than "That's how the elitists play them".

AT least we agree with one thing: they DID make their deck wrong, if they use TToC in their deck outside of a Toon deck. That's just utterly stupid. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 20:13, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

the card dosent need to support cards of only it s own archtype, if it can support its own archtype and provide support for other decks that is a good thing you dont have to restrict your cards to just 1 archype, your supposed to mix different cards to build better decks. For example darkworld is nt the same archtype as fabled but they go together really well because they both focuss on discard the momnsers to specail summon from the graveyard and draw cards.

[email protected] (talk • contribs) 19:22, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

That's not what I'm talking about; I'm talking about cards specifically designed to ONLY support their own archetype, like TToC; using them outside of their own archetype is wasteful, IMO, because you're only able to use 3 to search for each other, and not anything else in your deck. Why would you do that? Yes, there are archetypes that work with each other, that's not what I'm talking about; I'm talking about the single cards designed specifically to only and solely be used with one particular archetype, and not anything else, being used outside of said archetype. SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 19:35, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Actually allot of people use toon table of contents to search out cannon soldier or blue dragon eyes toon dragon after they have searched the other copies of toon table of contents . If they search for blue eyes toon dragon then it can be discardedwith trade-in to draw 2 cards.

[email protected] (talk • contribs) 20:17, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Never seen that happen, actually; most I've seen is 3 TToC, and that's it. Could be a good combo in a Toon deck, but again, what use is it outside of one? Wouldn't Barbaros or any of the other quick level 8 monsters people use nowadays be more useful for that combo? SynjoDeonecros (talk • contribs) 20:23, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

A Blue eyes/Exodia FTK deck needs TToC AND Toon blue eyes with 3 copies of blue eyes and white stone. It's a basic deck well known. You should read and try to understand what the others are trying to tell you. It's just about numbers, in an exodia deck, you need to get to him as fast as you can by drawing your whole deck so you need cards like that. Wilimut ^Talk_Mail Paris, 20:29, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

barbaros can't be searched via toon table of contents , the reason you use blue eyes toon dragon is because it can be searched. I will try to explain a different example of a card being used outside it's archtype. In gladiators beast you want to contact fusion, but you can't guarantee you will get the fusion mateial required. So if you use elemental hero prisma you can use him as substitute. He can be searched with reinforcement s of the army, E-emergancy cal ,or elemental hero stratos. Basically by including prisma in the deck you have reliable way of specail summoning your contact fusions.

[email protected] (talk • contribs) 20:35, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

The point of Self Searchers is deck thinning. Plaina nd simple. Why just use Gather your mind with Toon Table of Contents and Spell Power Grasp? Monster that can search themselves can save your ass while thinning your Deck. Its all about how you play. Its not a matter of you're doing it wrong its matter of what the flaming fuck you do. Garchomp87 (talk • contribs) 03:13, June 23, 2011 (UTC)

In addition, Gather Your Mind can be played once per turn (for 2 spell counters for example), while Toon Table of Contents + Toon World/Blue-Eyes Toon Dragon could be played in 1 turn, (for 4 spell counters, or a target for Trade-In. Additionally, if you play any -1 cards in an exoidia deck, how are you supposed to maintain a hand size of at least 5 to actually hold the exodia :3-Resk (✩) 15:20, June 23, 2011 (UTC)