Card Rulings talk:Command Knight

bottomless trap hole DOES NOT affect command knight,that ruling is 100% inapropriate,because command knight has 1200 atk points when summoned and only gets the boost after it hits the field makig it too late for bottomless trap hole,based on this ruling right now then cards like horn of heaven and solemn judgement should not work on jinzo,someone is really messing things up —This unsigned comment was made by 98.249.160.172 (talk • contribs) 09:40, November 30, 2009

-- Actually, Solem Judgement abort the "summoning phase", before Jinzo is on the field, before Jinzo's effect is active. Does Traphole's effect activate BEFORE command knight's effect is active?

Negate the activation of a Summon -- Solem

Activate only when your opponent Summons a monster -- Traphole —This unsigned comment was made by 93.185.161.143 (talk • contribs) 11:24, November 30, 2009

Note that a Summon has two parts - first, you declare the Summon and players have a chance to negate it, and afterwards the Summon is successful and players can respond to it. It's similar to activating "Monster Reborn" - first, players have a chance to negate "Monster Reborn" with cards like "Magic Jammer". If they don't, then they can wait for the Summon to be successful, and afterwards activate "Torrential Tribute".

"Solemn Judgment" and "Horn of Heaven" are activated before the Summon is successful. At this time, the monster has not been Summoned successfully yet, so the monster is not on the field, so you do not apply its Continuous Effects yet. Thus, the effect of "Jinzo" is not being applied yet, so Trap Cards can still be activated.

"Bottomless Trap Hole" is activated after the monster is Summoned. The monster has already been Summoned, so it is already face-up on the field, so you are already applying its Continuous Effect. You are already applying its effect, so "Jinzo" is preventing Trap Cards from being activated, and "Command Knight" is gaining +400 ATK.

It's usually better to ask questions on the Forum, since more people visit there. Also, remember to sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~, since that automatically creates a signature for you.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 05:32, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

i have a problem with your little explanation,since when has there ever been a pre summoning or pre activation momment in yugioh,to negate a summoning the monster must first be summoned just like to negate a spell or trap it must first be activated,theres no rule anywhere that says you have to declare your activating or summoning a card before actually doing it,and just like with a spell you must waittill its activated and you see the spell then decide if you want to negate it or not its the same thing with a monster,also unlike continous spell cards continous monster effects are in effect the moment they are in play so then continous monster effects should have a spell speed of $ and be uncounterable or they have to change jinzo and make it so that traps can counter his summoning like trap hole and such other things and not just jinzo any monster that has a continous effect that makes it immune to trap or spell effects

spell speed 4 not $ hehe sorry bout that

also your monster reborn example was pointless because using torrential tribute to destroy the monster summoned by monster reborn is not a chain since you didnt counter monster reborn but rather its effect,your torrential tribute started a new chain otherwise your torrential tribute would have activated first in the chain before monster reborn took effect making it useless

let me give you an example,you summon mobius the frost monarch(trigger effect,spell speed 1)your opponent has trap hole and solemn judgement on the field,he activates trap hole and destroys mobius,however since he was still summoned sucsesfully he can now use mobius's effect to destroy his solemn judgement,now replay but instead this time he activates msolemn judgement and therefore negates the summoning so mobius's effect does not activate sparing his trap hole,now lets play that scene with jinzo,jinzo is summoned and based on popular belief since his effect is continous then its already in play,since jinzo's effect states no traps can be activated you cannot use your trap hole or solemn judgement(this is why i said continous monster effects should be spell speed 4 and uncounterable),its the same thing with command knight since its effect is continous and would be spell speed 4 you cannot counter it with bottomless since it had 1200 atk when summoned but AFTER its summon it immedietely gained an additional 400 from its effect,however the rulebook says continous monster effects are spell speed 1 therefore you should be able to counter it with a trap upon summoning,so if jinzo is summoned then you can immideately activate a trap hole to counter its continous monster effect or any trap really,same thing with other cards like wildheart,however bottomless still wouldnt work on command knight since it would have 1200 atk when summoned(which is when you would activate bottomless)and would only get the 400 boost after sucsesfully being established on the field making it to late for bottomless either way,the point is something has to be changed and thats either make continous monster effects spell speed 4 and uncounterable,or make it so that cards like jinzo and wildheart can be destroyed by traps when summoned —This unsigned comment was made by 98.249.160.172 (talk • contribs) 12:12, December 1, 2009

There has always been two parts to the Summon. For example, see Card Rulings:Royal Oppression:

There are basically 2 ways to Special Summon a monster. The first way is with a Spell Card like "Monster Reborn", a Trap Card like "Call of the Haunted", or an Effect Monster like "Magical Scientist". The second way is built in to the monster, and Special Summons it without activating an effect, such as "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" or "Dark Necrofear". "Royal Oppression" can negate both of these types of Special Summon. In the first case, you chain the activation of "Royal Oppression"'s effect to the activation of the Spell, Trap, or Monster Card's effect, and negate the effect. In the second case, right before the monster is Special Summoned, you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon (the same procedure that you use for "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment").'

It is the same as with Spell/Trap Cards. You first activate the Spell/Trap Card, and afterwards it resolves. Likewise, you first declare the Summon, and afterwards the Summon is successful. That is why you can use "Solemn Judgment" to negate the Summon of "Jinzo" (you are activating "Solemn Judgment" after the declaration), but "Trap Hole" cannot destroy "Jinzo". See Card Rulings:Jinzo:

When "Jinzo" is Tribute Summoned, cards like "Trap Hole" and "Torrential Tribute" cannot be activated because "Jinzo's" Continuous Effect is applied when it is Summoned, but you can negate its Summon with "Solemn Judgment", "Horn of Heaven", etc.

"Bottomless Trap Hole" does not "counter" the Summon; "Bottomless Trap Hole" does not negate the Summon. It destroys the monster after it is Summoned. "Solemn Judgment" negates the Summon and destroys the monster before it is Summoned.

For "Command Knight", "Command Knight" has already been Summoned, so its Continuous Effect is already active. It already has 1600 ATK, so "Bottomless Trap Hole" would be activated.

I suggest you re-read my example with "Monster Reborn". You don't use "Magic Jammer" after "Monster Reborn" Summons the monster - you use "Magic Jammer" before "Monster Reborn" resolves but after it activates. Also, you don't activate "Torrential Tribute" in Chain to "Monster Reborn" - you wait for "Monster Reborn" to resolve, and then activate it afterwards.

Similarly, you don't use "Solemn Judgment" after a monster is Summoned - you use "Solemn Judgment" before the monster is Summoned but after your opponent declares that he is Summoning. Also, you don't activate "Torrential Tribute" at the same time that you would activate "Solemn Judgment" - you have to wait for the Summon to be successful, and afterwards you activate "Torrential Tribute".

Continuous Effects do not have Spell Speeds. Spell Speeds are only used in building a Chain, to determine what can or cannot be activated. Continuous Effects never use Chain Link, so players cannot Chain to them, so there is no reason for effects to have Spell Speeds. The latest version of the rulebook, page 39 (or 46 in the PDF), does not mention that Continuous Effects are Spell Speed 1.

Trigger Effects are Spell Speed 1, so they activate automatically. The effect of "Mobius the Frost Monarch" activates when it is successfully Summoned, and "Trap Hole" is Chained to the effect. However, "Solemn Judgment" is activated before the Summon is successful/completed, and it negates the Summon. Thus, "Mobius the Frost Monarch" is never successfully Summoned, so its effect never activates.

Again, remember to sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~, since that automatically creates a signature for you.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 20:31, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

i disagree,activating a continous monster effect is the same as activating a continous spell card or trap card,when you activate something like royal decree you can counter it with either mystical space typhoon or seven tools of the bandit,with 7 tools you negate its activation and destroy it,with mystical space typhoon,or better yet dust tornado you simply destroy it but since it was a continous effect once the card is destroyed the effect is no longer in play,it should be the same thing with continous monster effects,the point of activation shouldbe when the monster is summoned so then you should be able to counter it with any card at that point,so if jinzo is summonedthen one should be able to counter his effects activation with any card wether it negates his summoning or not,in command knights case,if you counter with bottomless then the effect of bottomless would be aplied before command knights continous effect,therefore when bottomless's effect activates then command knight should still only have 1200 atk points since you countered the summoning which is when the effect takes place 98.249.160.172 01:21, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

just like with a spell or trap card,you can only negate its activation once its actually activated,so according to you,since you can counter command knights summoning with bottomless because its effect is alreafdy active then likewise you shouldnt be able to counter jinzos summoning with solemn judgement because he was already summoned so his effect prevents the activation of solemn judgement to negate his summoning,or is this game beyond logic

I'm not sure with what you are disagreeing. What I said above are the official rules.

To activate means to start a Chain Link. Continuous Effects do not activate, by definition. For example,

Card Rulings:Total Defense Shogun: You cannot chain to "Total Defense Shogun"’s effect that changes him to Defense Position when Normal Summoned or Flip Summoned. So you cannot chain "Spellbinding Circle", etc.

Card Rulings:Tactical Espionage Expert: This is a Continuous Effect that you cannot chain to.

Card Rulings:Sphere of Chaos: For the effect which prevents "Sphere of Chaos" from being destroyed by battle once per turn: This is a Continuous Effect. Players cannot chain to it.

Yes, Continuous Spell/Trap Cards are activated in order to place them on the field, but afterwards their effects are (usually) Continuous, and thus have no Spell Speed. For example, the effect of "Royal Decree" does not activate whenever its effect is applied; the effect is applied Continuously, without starting a Chain Link. It does not start a Chain Link, so there is no reason for it to have a Spell Speed. Just because "Royal Decree" has a Spell Speed, it does not mean that its effect must have one.

In your example with "Mystical Space Typhoon", you are Chaining to the activation of "Royal Decree"; you are not Chaining to the effect of "Royal Decree".

I'm not sure what you mean by "counter".

Again, "Solemn Judgment" and "Royal Oppression" are activated before the Summon is successful, which is before the monster's Continuous Effects are applied. See Card Rulings:Royal Oppression to see that cards can be activated before the Summon is successful, and Card Rulings:Jinzo to see that, at this time, Continuous Effects are not active.

For your second paragraph, again, you're misunderstanding. When you activate "Monster Reborn", think of it as having two "windows" in which you may activate cards:

• The first "window" has you Chaining to the activation of "Monster Reborn". At this time (during this "window"), you can activate cards like "Magic Jammer" to negate it.
• The second "window" has you responding to the Summon of the monster by "Monster Reborn". At this time (during this "window"), you can activate cards like "Bottomless Trap Hole" in response to the Summon.

You cannot activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" during the second "window", since no Spell Card is being activated. You cannot activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" during the first "window", since no monster has been Summoned.

Likewise, when Summoning, there are two "windows" in which players can activate cards:

• The first "window" involves cards which negate the Summon, like "Solemn Judgment" or "Royal Oppression". At this time, the monster has not been successfully Summoned, so the monster is not considered to be on the field yet, so the monster's Continuous Effect is not yet active. "Command Knight" does not get +400 ATK, and "Jinzo" is not negating Trap Cards.
• The second "window" involves responding to the Summon once it is successful, with cards like "Bottomless Trap Hole". The monster has been successfully Summoned, so the monster is on the field, so the monster's Continuous Effect is active. "Command Knight" gains +400 ATK, and "Jinzo" is negating Trap Cards.

"Solemn Judgment" cannot be activated during the second "window", since no monster is being Summoned. "Bottomless Trap Hole" cannot be activated during the first "window", since no monster has been Summoned yet.

Comparing "Jinzo" vs "Solemn Judgment" and "Command Knight" vs "Bottomless Trap Hole" is faulty, since it is two different scenarios. The two are responding to different things, and are activated at different times.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 06:59, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

well then tell me,why is it that a card like royal decree can be countered by something like dust tornado but when you try that with any other kind of trap it doesnt work,its because other traps dont have to stay in play to be in effect like continous ones just like with spell cards,you keep talking about different phases to a summoning but there is no such thing,you either summon or you dont,which is why i keep comparing solemn to bottomless,because they are both activated during the same point in the summoning period,just because one negates the summoning from happening and the other one doesnt does not mean they take effect at different points just like with seven tools of the bandit and dust tornado,which is why im saying that either none of these should work on jinzo 0or both of them should,even if solemn judgemenmt negates the summoning the point is the summoning still had to happen in the first place making its point of activation exactly the same as a trap hole,and in the case of jinzo since his effect is continous once destroyed by either one his effect becomes null and void whereas a card like mobius would still have its effect work if you used a regular trap or something like solemn judgement to negate his summoning therefore negating his effect's activation,its like comparing a scenario in which you would counter a royal decree with seven tools or dust tornado either one would work because royal decree is a contious tra[p card so once gone its effect is gone,this would be jinzo,solemn and bottomless scenario,then lets you try to counter a torrential tribute with dust tornado,even though it was destroyed it would still work however use somening like seven tools and it gets negated but either way both the dust tornado and seven tools were activated at the same exact point,this would be the mobius solemn and bottomless scenario,these rulings contradict with the rules of the game

I'm not sure on what you are basing your claims.

You claim that Summons do not have different parts, but this is clearly incorrect - the ruling on "Royal Oppression" that I quoted above says that it is activated "right before the monster is Special Summoned", so there has to be a "window" between when the Summon is declared and when the monster is actually Special Summoned. The ruling on "Royal Oppression" is an official ruling from Konami, so it is correct and must be followed. If you have a problem with it, then contact Konami.

You claim that... I'm not exactly sure what you are claiming about "Jinzo", but the official ruling is,

When "Jinzo" is Tribute Summoned, cards like "Trap Hole" and "Torrential Tribute" cannot be activated because "Jinzo's" Continuous Effect is applied when it is Summoned, but you can negate its Summon with "Solemn Judgment", "Horn of Heaven", etc.

This is the official ruling from Konami, so it is correct and must be followed. If you have a problem with it, contact Konami.

Lastly, do you have any rulings to support what you say? I have seen no ruling stating that the Summon does not have two "windows". If you don't have any rulings, then you're just pulling opinions out of thin air and making baseless arbitrary claims.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 05:06, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

well based on what i just read from royal opression youd have to activate it before the monster hits the field,so if you use solemn judgement to negate the summoning of jinzo youd have to do it blind before the monster is played on the field,so if you do indeed use solemn judgement or horn of heaven to negate a summoning you have to use it before the monster actually gets played on the field,so even if you use it on jinzo,youd have to use it before knowing that it was a jinzo that was being summoned,so i guess your right there is a pre summoning moment when youd have to activate cards that negate summonings but youd have to do it blind without knowing what monsters summoning it is your neegating

oh by the way smart guy instead of simply brushing off my points of view as baseless pointlkess opinions why dont you actually consider my opinions and my logic behind them,i was trying to make sense of everything using logic and the rules from the official rulebook but instead of thinking about what i say you simply argue and try to correct me BECAUSE some stupid ruling,did you ever consider the fact that maybe some ruling arent always perfect and may need some mending or are you simply to arrogant and egotistical to even think about and try to understand others points of view mr machina,but you know what it doesnt even matter if we simply have to accept rulings as they are withou question so be it

I don't see how the "negating the Summon blindly" thing would work. "The Selection" is also activated during this period, but at this time (under your interpretation) you don't know if the Summoned monster's Attribute, so you don't know if "The Selection" can resolve properly.

Likewise, it has been ruled that "Solemn Judgment" cannot even be activated when "Obelisk the Tormentor" is Summoned, since "Solemn Judgment" cannot resolve properly. How can this ruling be possible if you don't know if it is "Obelisk the Tormentor" being Summoned?

Konami is in charge of the game. If they want certain cards to be ruled a certain way, then we have to follow - their ruling are inherently correct, since it is their game. It's like going to someone's else's house and re-arranging his furniture. Yes, we can complain and disagree with the rulings, but we still have to follow them until Konami officially changes the ruling.

The rulebook does not contain everything. It does not detail SEGOC, Missing the Timing, or the Breakdown of the Battle Phase - all of which are official and from Konami. You have to rely on the other rulings and other information that Konami distributes.

If you were using the rulebook, then where did it say that there was exactly one part to a Summon, and that all these cards are activated at the same time? Granted, it doesn't say that there are two parts, but we have the other rulings and other information from Konami which describe how there are two parts.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 03:46, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

gah why must there be such irritatingly confusing card effects,stupid konami making effects that contradict with one another,anyways sorry for being so stubborn and thank you for being so patient with me 98.249.160.172 12:37, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, it's no problem. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 19:18, December 7, 2009 (UTC)