Forum:End Phase - What can/cannot be done?

Section 1

Okay, I like to think that I understand a lot about this game. One thing that has bothered me for quite some time is the End Phase. I understand that it is the time where a lot of effects are nulled. My question is actually several different parts in one:

• First, If I have a card that can be activated, such as a Quick-Play Spell Card in my Hand or a face-down Trap that can be activated, can they be activated during the End Phase? Specifically without a chain that they attach to?
• Second, the final thing that happens in an End Phase is the Discard of cards if the Turn Player's Hand is greater than 6. Can any player activate cards during or after this?
• If after the Hand Size Limit occurs, my Hand becomes greater than 6, do I discard again?

These are important in situations like when a player uses "Super Rejuvenation". This Quick-Play Spell Card allows the user to draw one card for each of their discarded or tributed Dragons during that turn.

• Can this card have its Draw effect be used after the Hand size limit? According to the End Phase, no. the Hand Size Limit is the last thing to occur. However the Rulings for "Super Rejuvenation" seems to say otherwise. You can activate the Draw effect after you have discarded for Hand size.
• If I draw a "Super Rejuvenation" during my End Phase, can I activate it during that End Phase? Can I activate it if I waited to draw until after I discarded through my Hand Size Limit?

Opinions are welcome, however I am hoping that replies can give set rulings that I can site in the future. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 17:26, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

To be true; you have to playing "Super Rejuvenation" first before discarding them - otherwise you're just discard for nothing. Then after you done discarding till your hand is at it original limitation again, you can draw once more for the effect of "Super Rejuvenation". If you discarded before playing "Super Rejuvenation", you draw nothing. Yes, that's exact what Konami want it to be workable. --iFredCat 20:48, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

FredCat, that is not right. The card does not care if the Dragons are discarded/tributed before or after the card is activated. It just says "during this turn". There is a Ruling that says that the total amount drawn is determined at the time that you choose to use it. Discarding after that will not allow you to draw again. Regardless, this still does not answer any of my questions. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 02:30, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I am trying to say that discard before activate it does not make it workable. Reckless, I will let Falzar or Dinoguy handle this case. --iFredCat 02:38, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

If your part of Ocg it would go like this, you activated super rejuvenation before hand sizeing during the end phase, before the end phase you did not tribute and/or discarded dragon type monster, you only discard 2 dragon type for hand sizeing now you have six card in hand after that you draw 2 card if you drawn another copy of super rejuvnation you can activated at this time before discarding again for hand sizeing, if you do you will draw 2 card before hand sizeing again, if you do not activated the second copy before hand sizeing again, you only hand size again and your turn is over.

If your part of Tcg It would go like this, you activated super rejuvenation before hand sizeing during the end phase, before the end phase you did not tribute and/or discarded dragon type monster, during hand sizeing you discarded 2 dragon type monster after that you do not draw card because your turn is over.96.44.92.186 (talk) 04:39, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

(In response to FredCat) Well actually a discard before the card is activated does count. It counts all discards and tributed Dragons up to and including the draw effect of "Super Rejuvenation" resolving. The rulings make it sound like the draw effect of "Super Rejuvenation" can be activated during the End Phase after the Hand size limit occurs. I am also wondering about the potential behind activating a "Super Rejuvenation" that was drawn by another "Super Rejuvenation". The potential is endless. If you use a "Hieratic" Deck that has monsters like "Hieratic Dragon of Nebthet" and "Hieratic Dragon of Su" with the monster "Hieratic Seal of the Dragon King". If you have a "Superalloy Beast Raptinus", you have an everlasting tribute lined up. Just tribute one for a "Hieratic Seal of the Dragon King" in your Graveyard and then tribute that for the first monster. This will rack up tributes and make "Super Rejuvenation" into more of a "draw your Deck" card.

With that idea, understanding the limits of this card are crucial. Unless someone abuses that combo above relentlessly, there will only be a few tributes to allow a user to draw. Drawing five cards could be great, but drawing another 6? How about a third "Super Rejuvenation" for another 10? That card could be a strong card in that Deck - IF you can use "Super Rejuvenation" and other Quick-Plays during the End Phase. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 05:09, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

(In response to 96.44.92.186) You still leave some questions. The OCG part was confusing. However that case, it still seems that you think that it would work as I do. Your TCG explanation is only applicable when I chose to not activate the card before the Hand Size Limit occurs. That is negligible. I only care if the combo would work. Also, where did you get these ideas? Cite reasons please, like I requested. opinions matter little without backing in this game I am afraid. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 05:09, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

That's not counted - I had many discussion with other users, and they are admins/pro judge like ATEM, that it must be first activate before Tribute/Discard the Dragon. But yes, you're on the track - it can be activate during End Phase of the turn... --iFredCat 11:14, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

FredCat100:If it is true that you have to activated super rejuvnation before discarding and/or tributed to be able to draw card during the end phase. You should update the super rejuvnation tip page because this folowing text would be invalid.

Discard 2 Dragons for "Magical Stone Excavation" to recycle this card. In doing so, you can draw up to 4 cards.

96.44.92.186 (talk) 13:34, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

S.R could all discarded/tributed cards, no matter the cards are discarded before or after its resolution.--Lê (talk • contribs) 14:33, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Fixed, that part of "Magical Stone Excavation" don't work - you only can draw 2 each time "Super Rejuvenation" is playing and memorized how many copy of Dragon being discard/Tribute afterward. I am sorry, LordGeo, but it's how Konami want it to be workable. --iFredCat 13:53, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for updating the tip page on super rejuvnation it will be less confusion for new commers.96.44.92.186 (talk) 14:20, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Never mind. Konami should make the card lore better - it look horrible oldfart to me. --iFredCat 16:10, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Section 2

Okay, as far as it is, there are two things that need to be said thus far. First, FredCat, 96.44.92.186 and Magicknight94, the card doesn't say after activation or anything like that. It says During this Turn. So, regardless of intention, it has to be used that way. (Just like how the wording has messed up the intention of cards in the past. (For example, the use of "Fairy Meteor Crush" did not intend for the user to equip it to the opponent's monster.) Konami can, when the feel like it, make a Ruling or Errata. Until that point, you must follow the card. Second, no one has answered ANY of the questions that I have asked. If you want to debate the use of "Super Rejuvenation", that can be done on another forum. This page is for the End Phase questions. I have enclosed the following from above with rulings and references that I have found so far.

• If I have a card that can be activated, such as a Quick-Play Spell Card in my Hand or a face-down Trap that can be activated, can they be activated during the End Phase? Specifically without a chain that they attach to? - Answered, Quick-Play Spell Cards can be activated during any Phase of the Controller's, regardless of chain.
• The final thing that happens in an End Phase is the Discard of cards if the Turn Player's Hand is greater than 6. Can any player activate cards after this? - Unknown, possible OCG/TCG difference?
• If after the Hand Size Limit occurs, my Hand becomes greater than 6, do I discard again/does the Hand Size Limit occur again? - Relating to question two, This could become moot if there is no possibility to activate effects after the Hand Size Limit.
• Can "Super Rejuvenation" have its Draw effect be used after the Hand size limit? According to the End Phase, no. the Hand Size Limit is the last thing to occur. However the Rulings for "Super Rejuvenation" seems to say otherwise. You can activate the Draw effect after you have discarded for Hand size. - OCG Ruling, otherwise question is the same.
• If I draw a "Super Rejuvenation" during my End Phase, can I activate it during that End Phase? Can I activate it if I waited to draw until after I discarded through my Hand Size Limit? - First question is moot. Quick-Plays can be activated during the End Phase. Second part relies on the answer to question 2. If effects/cards can be activated after the Hand Size Limit, then the End Phase would revert to before the Hand Size Limit and therefore would allow the second "Super Rejuvenation" to activate.

--LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 19:15, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Further, I would leave this to ATEM since he would understand you well than I do - no offensive, I give you a great respect for give so much thought on this part where Konami have not covering or explain why it is happening that way. Again, no offensive if I sound little haste and lazy at this point - I am just Judge LV2, unofficial, with lack knowledge of how the game mechanic work in different way - I do know the field destruction but not this part. --iFredCat 21:47, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem FredCat. This is something that Konami has sat on for quite a while. It only causes problems when the Judges 'have to make rulings on the spot and that just leads to further problems. It is why I have not been interested in becoming a Judge myself. I have been playing this game since ... Oh GOD! It has to be 2001 or so. I know a large amount of this game in all the different ways. It just comes to a point that there is frustration with Konami and this is sadly one of the issues. I still have an incredibly difficult time understanding the difference between Inherent Special Summons and other Special Summons. It just is too confusing.

There should never be any shame in saying that you do not know the answer. I, myself, had to admit that I did not know this answer because I made this topic. Unless Konami sticks their nose in, we only have what they already gave us and I don't know how exactly it works. Just keep an eye on this topic and maybe you may learn the answer with me. :) --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 23:53, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yea, why can't I learn some new trick or two? Though I am might older than you are, I have to learn some more. --iFredCat 00:14, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

I will try to answer LordGeovanni question base on what I know now, that I did not know before, however I will let user Atem to tell me if I'm wrong or not.

1. You can activated quick play spell or trap, from you hand during the end phase before handsizing occurs regardless if it chains to another card or not. No ocg/tcg difference.

2. Situation for OCG only: You have 9 cards in you hand, during your end phase you activated super rejuvnation, after this you now have 8 cards in your hand, you discard two dragon type monster card from your hand to make you hand 6 card, after that you will draw 2 card makeing your hand 8 card, you have drawn another copy of super rejuvnation, you activated that copy you have now 7 card in hand, you discard one dragon type monster card to make you hand 6 card, after that you draw one card, after that you have now 7 card, you did not draw your 3th copy of super rejuvnation, you discard one dragon type monster from your hand you turn is over.

3. Situation for TCG only: You have 9 cards in you hand, during your end phase you activated super rejuvnation, after this you know have 8 card in your hand, you discard 2 dragon type from your hand to make your hand six card, after that nothing else happen because your turn is over.

my explanation in number 2 is only correct if konami did not decided to ad the common sence of TCG to OCG.96.44.92.186 (talk) 13:22, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

What? You are not citing any rules. You are just saying whatever. I asked for specific rulings. And your explanation made almost no sense at all. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 17:00, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

There is no diff between TCG and OCG here. If you normal discard things like Dandylion or Tour Bus, they eff will activate after the discarding, so Super Ref can chain to that eff. That's all.--Lê (talk • contribs) 04:23, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

User Magicknight 94: If you normal discard during the end phase can you activated quick-play spell card or trap after you discard even if there is no other effect that start a chain?96.44.92.186 (talk) 04:35, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

No, in both TCG and OCG.--Lê (talk • contribs) 05:16, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Lê, (Magicknight94), I think that you are missing one major point. One of the (OCG) Rulings for "Super Rejuvenation" says that the resolution or lingering effect of "Super Rejuvenation" or whatever the draw effect is called can be activated while also counting the discards due to Hand Size Limit. This means that "Super Rejuvenation", or at least the lingering effect of an already active "Super Rejuvenation", can resolve after that point. The next question is "What happens if during the End Phase, after the Hand Size Limit, the Turn Player's Hand has more than 6 cards?" If the player can end their turn with greater than 6 cards then nothing would happen otherwise, unless there was a change to the Hand Size Ruling saying that Quick-Plays can be activated afterward. If the player cannot end their turn with greater than 6 cards (unless other card effects are changing the amount), The OCG Ruling still says that the lingering effect can end after the Hand Size Limit. As such, the Hand could grow to be greater than 6 cards. I do not have a Ruling for this however I believe that if the Hand is greater than 6 after the Hand Size Limit the game will force another Hand Size Limit. If this is all true, why would we not be able to activate a Quick-Play prior to the (second) Hand Size Limit? It would seem more likely that the game would revert to a point prior to the Hand Size Limit than it would if it just had another surprise Hand Size Limit. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 06:24, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

No you cannot activated a quick play spell or trap during the ajusting you hand timing, except when a mandatory effect like Ojamagic activated during the ajusting your hand timing. Even if after the resolution of ojamagic, or the draw effect of super rejuvnation cause you to repeat hand ajusting you are not at the before hand ajusting timing, you are still at the hand ajusting timing.96.44.92.186 (talk) 04:37, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

For someone who seems to know so much about this game, you still fail at two points. One is that there are non-manditory effects that can activate and/or resolve during the Hand Size Limit. For example, the Effect of "Super Rejuvenation" can conclude. I decide when that happens, if it happens at all. I could chose to "forget" and not use its effect. Another example is one from the UDE days: "Manticore of Darkness". You could Special Summon it by its own effect during the Hand Size Limit timing. Konami has never ruled against this. A Player can use "Bottomless Trap Hole" against it. This proves that there are entire chains possible after the Hand Size Limit occurs. As such, the only way that a player would be unable to activate the "Super Rejuvenation" is if Konami made it clear that you cannot activate cards (as opposed to the results aka "Lingering Effects") after the Hand Size Limit and with the "Manticore of Darkness" example they have to make a ruling to refute that before it exists. Currently the UDE ruling is in effect.

The second thing that you fail at is something that I need to bring up. You are not using a User Name. Why is that? Why do you not Cite Rulings as I have asked on two separate occasions now? Is it because you are just spouting out your opinion and you cannot back it up? Are you afraid that you may be proven wrong later and have your User Name be listed as a know-nothing? Your opinion is acceptable as long as you note it as such. Say that this is what you think would happen. Don't sound as if you are the absolute dictator of this game. Especially if you are not going to cite reasons. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 05:26, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

I am not afraid to be proven wrong, however you can only prove me wrong if there is a card ruling for that which you point it out that konami did not make a card ruling for that, wait a minute konami already put a ruling on this, but not as a card ruling, in the rules book about the end phase it state the last thing that happen is you ajust you hand, at the very end of the rule book it stated that if a card effect goes against the rules of the rule book go with the card not the rule book, the effect of the card takes priority over the rule book, this also means if the card ruling goes against the rule book go with the card ruling.

During hand size limit timing, and you have 8 card in you hand the first card you discard is ojamagic, would ojamagic wait until you done discarding to make you hand six card before starting a chain? During the end phase if you have more than six card in your hand, there will be sub steps during the end phase, the first sub step is before hand size limit occurs, during this sub step you can activated quick play spell or trap, after that substep 2 During hand Sizing timing, you cannot activated quick play spell or trap, except if an exception that start a chain do so.

My explanation above is unknown if it is write, or wrong.96.44.92.186 (talk) 13:45, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Have you ever taken a proper English writing class? I mean, not to be rude, but your writing is HORRIBLE. I need to reread what you have posted like three or four times before I understand what you intend to mean. This is the numerous responses for you:

• If you are not afraid to be wrong, what is your reasoning for not signing in?
• Forums are for discussions. I have already asked for Rulings, if I had them I would have already told about them here as this discussion could use it then. Pointing out that I do not have a set Ruling on that is both stupid and redundant. Additionally so, I have provided several Rulings already. The OCG "Super Rejuvenation" and the UDE "Manticore of Darkness" rulings. They are both still in effect due to the TCG not having a ruling to refute them.
• Rule #1 is to follow the Rule Book. #2 is to follow the card over the Rule Book. #3 is to follow the Ruling over the card and Rule Book. Why exactly did you feel the need to mention this? If someone is unaware of this then they have some pretty big problems with playing this game.
• "Ojamagic", if discarded when a person had 8 cards in their hand during the Hand Size Limit would wait until the Hand had less than 7 cards. This is because all the cards discarded are discarded at once. The Effect would mandatorily activate after that. The effect would increase the hand by 3 which leads to the question that I asked before, "If the Hand is greater than 6 after the Hand Size Limit, does the game revert to prior to the Hand Size Limit or Just activate the Hand Size Limit again or does the turn just end?"
• Okay, and now you have provided the fact that this is your speculation. You still haven't mentioned why you think it works that way.
  • For the benefit of others, this is what your latest post should look like with proper English:

I am not afraid to be proven wrong, however you can only prove me wrong if there is a card ruling saying that I am wrong. You have pointed out that Konami did not make a card ruling for that... wait a minute Konami already has a ruling on this, just not as a card ruling. In the rules book, discussing the End Phase, it states that the last thing that occurs in the End Phase is you adjusting your Hand. At the very end of the rule book, it also states that if a card effect goes against the rules of the rule book, for the player to follow the orders of the card and not the rule book. As such, the effect of the card takes priority over the rule book. This also means, if the card ruling goes against the rule book, for the player to go with the card ruling.

During the timing of the Hand Size Limit, if you have 8 card in you Hand, the first card you discard could be "Ojamagic". Would "Ojamagic" wait until you are finished discarding enough cards to make your Hand below 7 cards before starting a chain? During the End Phase, there are sub-steps during the End Phase. The first sub-step is before the Hand Size Limit occurs. During this sub-step, you can activated Quick-Play Spell or Trap cards. After that, the second sub-step is the Hand Size Limit timing. You cannot activated Quick-Play Spell or Trap cards during this time unless an exception occurs that will start a chain does so.

I am not sure if my explanation above is correct or not. (Taken from prior post made by 96.44.92.186 and edited.)

Sorry! About the bad grammar.96.44.92.186 (talk) 04:03, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

User Lord Geovanni: If a card effect cause you to repeat re-adjusting your hand, and after that you are allow to activated quick play spell, or Trap because it reverts back to before hand adjusting. You would break one major rules of the game(you cannot go back to a previous sub-step).96.44.92.186 (talk) 12:42, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Konami has stated that the only Phase that is broken down into sub-steps is the Battle Phase. All other ones have mandatory actions but they are not "Sub-steps". This is like how during the Draw Phase the player MUST draw a card. It is mandatory. In this case, there is an additional rule that says that the Phase (and Turn) end right after that. With this, I would say that the rule is clear. However, That is part of the Rule Book. I have two different examples that trump that rule every time: The OCG "Super Rejuvenation" Ruling and the UDE "Manticore of Darkness" Ruling. As such, Lingering Effects (OCG "Super Rejuvenation" Ruling) can resolve and cards can activate (UDE "Manticore of Darkness" Ruling). With this all said, there would have to be a request sent to Konami to figure out if there would be any additional discards due to the Hand being greater than 6 but that is negligible when you realize that, based on those two rulings alone, you can activate a "Super Rejuvenation" and resolve the Lingering Effect after the discard even if another Hand Size Limit does not occur. In this case, a player could end their turn with 10+ cards and give themself a huge advantage for the next turn. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 19:42, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

During the battle phase sub-step, you declaire an attack, you activated dragon rage, your opponent doesn't chain to it and wait for it to resolve. You decided that you do not want to activated further card, your opponent activated Mirror Force, which would be an illegale move because "dragon rage" already resolve it is no longer the specific timing of declairing an attack. If it is true that you can activated a card before repeating Hand-adjusting, this would means if dragon rage resolve at the declaire an attack timming you could go back to before the declaire an attack timming.96.44.92.186 (talk) 01:07, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Ps. If you see grammar mistake or spelling mistake, please correct it in the paragraph above, do not repeat the paragraph above with the correction because I would be considering this to be rude.96.44.92.186 (talk) 01:07, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Actually your entire statement was true. Even with that, there was still a flaw. The only Step with Sub-steps is the Battle Phase. As such, once you end a chain and proceed to another Sub-step you are unable to return. All of this you said and is true. The flaw in your statements are twofold. First, the game does recognize a revert. This is a "Replay". This shows that the game will identify when something is amiss and will allow a correction. As such, this could have a "replay" occur when you are Ending the End Phase by saying that that is not a feasible action (Ending the Turn with 7+ cards in Hand). Additionally, To end any Phase, you must pass priority to your opponent. I am sure that the opponent can create a chain and therefore chains can exist after the Hand Size Limit. If you were to say that the game reverts to directly prior to, (and therefore starting), the second Hand Size Limit, you could still retain priority to activate a card instead of proceeding to the Hand Size Limit due to the Turn Player having control of priority.

(Side note, I was not attempting to be rude with my restatement of your post. I just had an extremely hard time understanding it that I made that in case others had a similar problem.) --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 02:30, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

User: LordGeovanni: I'm sorry. Because I should have tested your theory in my yugioh world championship 2007 video game first before writing that above. This is what happen when I tested it. I selected end phase with 7 cards in my hand, it ask me if I wanted to activated spell or trap card, I selected no, after that it ask me to discard a card from my hand, I hold the A botton immedieatly after discard a card, It shows you have discarded a card from you hand activated spell or trap card Yes, Or No.

Since I finally found the answer, there is still one thing that I am confuse about. If you have 7 card in your hand, and you decided that you do not want to activated a card before discarding. Does your opponent have to wait for you to discard a card from your hand in order to be able to activated a Quick-play spell or trap card?96.44.92.186 (talk) 16:33, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Remember that the games are sometimes wrong. There are always bugs and glitches. Especially with Rulings that can come out after the game is made and errors in translation sometimes. The game that you are talking about, (I think Yu-Gi-Oh! World Championship 2007), has a number of glitches and the known examples are listed on its page. This is, of course, only a list of known errors. More are possible.

For the Discard starting a chain, I am not fully aware if that is correct. I believe it is, however I do not know for certainty if discarding due to Hand Size Limit is something that you can chain off of.

I do not know about the opponent's opportunity. The only thing you could try is to attempt to end your Turn and see if the opponent chains. I am aware that you have to announce that you intend to end a Phase and by what you said, you chose End the Phase and then the discard, that would be passing priority to the opponent to allow them to activate cards before the discard.

For all of this, there are two options within the games. First would be to duel another person while both players are understanding that the purpose is to solve that question. The other is a bit odd. I have heard that you can set up Duel Puzzles in the newer games. It would be much easier to set up a puzzle and see what would happen. Sadly, this is all still using the games and they have proven to be unreliable in the past... --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 00:52, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Discarding a card from you hand does not start a chain because it is not activating a spell, trap, or monster effect, it is an action. To prove my explanation let's go back to main phase 1. The turn player as the priority to do an action, or activated a spell, trap card, or monster effect first (*except for trigger effect*). If the turn player does an action that is not to activated a spell, trap, or monster effect the turn player retain priority to activated a spell, trap card or monster effect(*except for trigger effect*). If the turn player does not make an action, or activated a spell, trap, or effect of a monster card during the main phase, the non-turn player is only allowed to activated a quick-play spell, Trap, or quick effect at the end of the main phase 1.

• If the non-turn player as a trigger effect, and the turn player does not have Trigger effect, the non-turn player would received priority for his trigger effect.* 96.44.92.186 (talk) 01:57, May 8, 2012 (UTC)