Forum:ECTOPLASMER

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Which takes priority first.

Brain Control of My monster after my oppentent attcks me, returning it to my field

or Ectoplasmer-ing my monster he took from me?

Which would resolve first?

Turn player has priority. He can choose to resolve the effect of "Brain Control" or "Ectoplasmer" first. Danny Lilithborne 08:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
  • It depends on who controls "Ectoplasmer". If your opponent does, he can choose which resolves first. If you control it, your opponent can choose to resolve "Brain Control" or pass to you. You can then decide to resolve "Ectoplasmer" or pass to your opponent. Your opponent must then resolve "Brain Control" and return control to you. After that, you resolve "Ectoplasmer" and your opponent Tributes a monster (if he still has one). --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 01:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

There are no passes. In this case you have "Simultaneous Effects Go On Chain". With SEGOC's rules, turn player's "Brain Control" resolves first as Turn Player's Mandatory Effect, and then "Ectoplasmer"s effect takes place as Opponent's Mandatory Effect. --ATEMVEGETA 04:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

SORRY. "Ectoplasmer" resolves first as chain link 2 and then "Brain Control" as chain link 1.--ATEMVEGETA 04:31, 2 Octomber 2008 (UTC)

No. Both effects resolve at the end of the End Phase, so they resolve separately. SEGOC is only applied when two effects have the same Trigger, and "at the end of the End Phase" isn't a Trigger.
It's similar to how "Gladiator Beast" monsters' effects don't form a chain when multiple ones use their tag-out effect.
Besides, "Brain Control"'s effect ending doesn't use a chain, so how can it go on chain?
--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 21:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Just take a look at SEGOC carefully and you will understand. Besides "brain control" is a lingering effect and activates at the end phase. Also, at SEGOC's page it prefers it. Also neither card says "at the end of the end phase".

First, "at the End Phase", "at the end of the End Phase", and "at the end of the turn" have been ruled to be mechanically identical.

SEGOC stands for "Simultaneous Effects Go On Chain". It means that when multiple effects Trigger simultaneously, they form a chain. This chain works the same way that normal chains do - if two "Sangan"s are destroyed, one will be Chain Link 1 and the other will be Chain Link 2. It's a chain, just like how if you chain "Mystical Space Typhoon" (as Chain Link 2) to "Axe of Despair" (as Chain Link 1).

You said that "Brain Control" is a lingering effect. That means that when it turns off, it doesn't use a chain. I ask again, how can it "go on chain" when it doesn't use a chain? If it would go on chain, it would need to activate, start a chain, wait for your opponent to respond, and then resolve - it doesn't, it just turns off.

In addition, how would you explain the example of "Gladiator Beast"s I gave? Their effects don't go on chain, even though they "trigger" at the same time. Also, that post is from Curtis Schultz, who works for UDE, so what he says goes.

You might also want to read the ruling on resolving mandatory/optional effects during the End Phase. It specifically refers to the effects of "Mystic Swordsman"/"Brain Control" resolving separately, and not forming a chain.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 17:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

We were wrong for the first time. I re-read the rulings for ECTOPLASMER and it says that the turn player chooses when to activate it's effect and not it's controller. But the term with the passing in such situation, I've hear it for the first time. I thought that when a compulsory effect try to activate alone, then it automatically becomes chain link 1 and then the priority automatically passes to the opponent. Isn't that the same as when you summon zaborg. (Zaborgs effect automatically becomes chain link 1 after his summoning. Right? I also thought that you can pass the priority when you have an optional effect and you don't want to activate it's effect, but in that case you have missed the timing. What kind of passing is that you are saying? Also what's this confusion about the GBs when 1 attack each other? isn't that the same as when a mystic tomato attack another mystic tomato? Aren't all those trigger effects that are trying to activate at the same time making SEGOC? I'm gonna CRAZY. PLEASE EXPLAIN. --ATEMVEGETA--

Unnecessarily Long Post

First, it's the turn player that Tributes the monster, but it's still the opponent's effect since the opponent controls "Ectoplasmer".

Anyways, resolving effects during the End Phase is one of those things that UDE never really explains, but expects us to know. Here's the best way to explain it - it was pieced together from numerous rulings. You start at Step 1 at the beginning of the End Phase:

(Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a card/effect, or pass. If the TP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2.
(Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a card/effect, or pass. If the NTP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3.
(Step 3) If the TP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 4. Otherwise:
•As Step 1, but the TP cannot pass. He must activate an effect (mandatory or otherwise). After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 4) If the NTP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 5. Otherwise:
•As Step 2, but the NTP cannot pass. He must activate an effect (mandatory or otherwise). After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 5) The End Phase ends. Start your opponent's next turn.

When I say "may choose to activate a card/effect", I mean that the player can resolve a mandatory "during the End Phase" effect, or he can activate a card he controls (such as "Jar of Greed").

Normally, when Trigger Effects are triggered, their effects activate as soon as possible (usually after the current chain). If two Trigger Effects would activate at the same time, their effects both activate and form a chain. This is SEGOC (Simultaneous Effects Go On Chain).

In general, SEGOC only applies to Trigger Effects, and Spell/Trap Cards with Trigger-like effects (like "Light Spiral" or "Stumbling"). Trigger effects always begin a chain, which means that players can respond before the effect resolves (just like any other chain). Some effects looks like Trigger Effects, but they don't use a chain, so they are Continuous (like "Raging Flame Sprite"). These Continuous Effects don't use SEGOC since they can't go on chain. Likewise, resolving "Brain Control" doesn't use a chain since it's just turning off a lingering effect, so it doesn't use SEGOC. Also, Spell/Trap Cards like "Dark Room of Nightmare" have may have effects that looks like Trigger Effects, but they do not form a chain, so they don't use SEGOC.

SEGOC requires the effects to have a trigger, which causes the effect to activate. For example, "Sangan"'s effect's trigger is when he is sent to the Graveyard, and "Zaborg the Thunder Monarch"'s effect is his successful Tribute Summon. They're generally written as "When «» happens, do «»". "During the End Phase" isn't exactly a trigger, pretty much since the game currently being the End Phase isn't something happening. (These effects are still classified as Trigger Effects because they don't fit into any other category. Some people actually classify them as Ignition Effects, but UDE/Konami says they're Trigger.)

SEGOC only applies when multiple Trigger Effects would occur simultaneously. Your example of Tribute Summoning "Zaborg the Thunder Monarch" isn't SEGOC, since there is only one effect. If "Mysterious Puppeteer" was on the field, then it would be a SEGOC situation, since two Trigger Effects ("Zaborg" and "Mysterious Puppeteer") would occur simultaneously.

Missing the timing is different. If you decide not to activate an optional effect and pass priority to your opponent, then you can't activate the optional effect since you've already decided that you're not going to activate it.

However, it's still possible for a SEGOC situation to occur during the End Phase:

The turn player controls "Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner", "Light Spiral", and "Garoth, Lightsworn Warrior". During the End Phase, "Lumina" sends 3 cards to the Graveyard, including "Wulf, Lightsworn Beast". "Light Spiral", "Garoth", and "Wulf"'s effect all trigger at the same time, so they activate according to SEGOC.

So, anyone else think that this game is unnecessarily complex? :P

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 04:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)



Look pal. Are those you say written in UDE rulings or somewhere else OR are just theory? If they're correct, then it's a whole new ruling that this wikia hasn't got at any of her pages. You say that there are 2 kind of trigger effects (and I don't mean compulsory and optional). Those how can use a SEGOC and those who cannot. Those who cannot are still classifield as trigger effects only because UDE hasn't any other category to categorize them. With the same reason when a card says "during the ....... Phase/Step (the effect), then the 5 steps take place (4 first steps for main phase). Right?

According to "Gladiator Beast" monsters' effects don't form a chain when multiple ones use their tag-out effect." and "the ruling on resolving mandatory/optional effects during the End Phase." and "Curtis Schultz" there are all what you are saying but a little bit different. There will be no precessing again at step 1 after finishing steps 3 and 4. He says that at step 1 the turn player can resolve as many of his effects as he want (optional and compulsory) one each, or he can pass.(If he pass then he has missed the timming to resolve his optional effects and cannot resolve them anymore.) Then move on to Step 2. (The same rules as step 1 but now for non-turn player.) Then move on to Step 3. In step 3 the turn player must resolve all his compulsory effects one each. Then move on to Step 4. (The same rules as step 3 but now for non-turn player.) Then move on to Step 5. The End Phase ends. Start your opponent's next turn.

So the step goes like this:

(Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a card/effect, or pass. If the TP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2.
(Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a card/effect, or pass. If the NTP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3.
(Step 3) If the TP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 4. Otherwise:
•As Step 1, but the TP cannot pass. He must activate an mandatory effect if he has. After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 3.
(Step 4) If the NTP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 5. Otherwise:
•As Step 2, but the NTP cannot pass. He must activate an mandatory effect if he has. After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 4.
(Step 5) The End Phase ends. Start your opponent's next turn.

--ATEMVEGETA--

It's compiled from various rulings and Judge List posts. It's like Priority, which is a whole other headache.

And there's been some debate on whether End Phase effects, like the "level up" effects of "LV" monsters, are Trigger or Ignition effects. It mainly boils down to how the effects don't have a clear Trigger, since they can be activated at any time during the End Phase. Sometimes effects aren't clear, like how "Zombyra the Dark"'s effect which decrease his ATK is part of the resolution of a Trigger Effect, and not a separate Continuous Effect. (That's how it's been ruled.)

There are also other grey areas where we could endlessly split up effect types. There are Trigger-like Continuous Effects like "Fire Princess", and Continuous Effects which apply as long as the card is on the field, like "Swamp Battleguard". There's also Continuous Effects which don't follow the rule that Continuous Effects only apply as long as the card is on the field (like Fusion Substitute Monsters or "Phantom Beast Cross-Wing").

There's even some effect types which lack a category altogether, so people have to invent terms for them. "Summon Effects" (like "Cyber Dragon") are technically a modification to game rules on how to Summon a monster. However, there are so many effects like this that all follow the same rules, that people invented the term to cover them. It's very useful, especially when explaining things like what "Black Horn of Heaven" can(not) negate.

There's also effects which aren't effects. These conditions always apply, and cannot be negated in any way. The best examples are "Exodia"'s winning condition and "A Legendary Ocean"'s name.

Back on topic, to your version of my chart: if your version is correct, then why does Curtis says that the player could activate "Mystic Swordsman LV2"'s effect in the second post of the Optional/Mandatory Effect thread? If we follow your chart, we're at Step 3 since both players passed, but the only mandatory effect to resolve is "Brain Control", so the player should only be able to resolve that. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 22:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

He maybe confused and that because in his other posts he says that if both players pass (in steps 1 and 2) the they have missed the timming and cannot activate their optional effects. He has to be confused there is now other way to explain. Maybe he thought that mystic swordsman lv2 is an compulsory effect. --ATEMVEGETA--

There's also the last post in that thread, which again says that optional effect can be activated after mandatory effects. Especially the last paragraph.
My chart still works if there are no mandatory effects. If both players pass, you go to Step 3. At Step 3, there are no mandatory effects, so the Turn Player can't do anything and you move on to Step 4. Ditto for Step 4, so you move on to Step 5 and end the turn. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 21:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

So, if the turn player has only optional effects he must activate the at step 1 or missed them. But if he has and compulsory effects then he has another change to activate his optionals at step 3. And at step 3 after one card's activation return to step 3 for another. And if he activate all his compulsory at step 3 and he has optional unresolved then he missed them and step 4 comes. Right? ATEMVEGETA 17:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Right on the first part. If the TP only has optional effects, he can only activate them in Step 1, since nothing can happen in Step 3.

For the second part, again, the last post in that thread shows how optional effects can be activated after a mandatory effect, even after there are no mandatory effects left to resolve. ("D.D. Scout Plane" was the only mandatory effect, but "Armed Dragon LV5"'s optional effect can still be activated after "D.D. Scout Plane" has resolved.)

With my chart, if the TP has no mandatory effects, nothing can be activated in Step 3 (you effectively skip it). After Step 3, you have to return to Step 1 - if you returned to Step 3, after resolving your last mandatory effect, nothing can be activated, so you wouldn't be able to activate your optional effects.

For example, Curtis says:

If the Turn Player decided instead to first apply his/her mandatory effect ("D.D. Scout Plane"), after Special Summoning "D.D. Scout Plane" both players would be allowed to respond to the Special Summon. If both players pass on responding to the Summon, the Turn Player would then be allowed to apply the effect of "Armed Dragon LV5" or pass. If they pass, and the Opponent also passes, gameplay would proceed to the Opponent's Draw Phase.

The Turn Player Special Summon "D.D. Scout Plane". After that resolves and after priority, the Turn Player returns to Step 1. If he passes, you go to Step 2 and the opponent can respond. If the opponent passes, then you go to Step 3 - but nothing can happen (since there are no mandatory effects), so you go to Step 4 - but again nothing can happen, so you go to Step 5. The End Phase ends, and the opponent's turn begins.

(Err, did I clarify that both mandatory and optional can be activated in Step 1? I don't think I did....)

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 20:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


So the step goes like this: 

   (Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a card/effect, or pass. If the TP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2. 

   (Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a card/effect, or pass. If the NTP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3. 

   (Step 3) If the TP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 4. Otherwise:
   •TP must activate an mandatory effect if he has. Also he can activate an optional effect. After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 3. 

   (Step 4) If the NTP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 5. Otherwise:
   •NTP  must activate an mandatory effect if he has. Also he can activate an optional effect. After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 4. 

   (Step 5) The End Phase ends. Start your opponent's next turn.

Is this finally right?

Also at step 3 and 4 the only effects that can be activated are optional and mandatory trigger effects. I mean that spell speed 2 or higher cards cannot be activated. They are only activated at step 1 and 2. Right?

Also when a player decides to resolve an optional or mandatory effect then can a card be chained to it's effect or not? ATEMVEGETA 08:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

(Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a card/effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect), or pass. If the TP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2.
(Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a card/effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect), or pass. If the NTP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3.
(Step 3) If the TP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 4. Otherwise:
•As Step 1, but the TP cannot pass. He MUST activate an effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect). After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 4) If the NTP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 5. Otherwise:
•As Step 2, but the NTP cannot pass. He MUST activate an effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect). After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 5) The End Phase ends. Start your opponent's next turn.

This is the version I originally gave, clarified a little. It's how I maintain things are done.

After activating/resolving an effect in Step 3, you have to return to Step 1. It's been confirmed that you can activate optional effects after you have no mandatory effects. However, the first sentence in Step 3 (either of our versions - I'm talking about the "If the TP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 4" line) says that nothing can be done if the Turn Player has no mandatory effects.

Same for Step 4, for the same reasons.

And Spell Speed 2+ effects can be activated at any time. You can also activate them in response to something resolving, through Priority.

For the last one, it depends on the effect that you're resolving/activating. If it's a chainable effect (like "Lightsworn" monsters), then it activates and starts a chain, so players can chain to it. If it's an unchainable effect that just resolves, like "Brain Control", then the effect resolves immediately, so players cannot chain. Players can respond to it with priority, though.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 03:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

OK. Lets take them as they have. These steps are only for Standby phase, End phase and End step. When effects are trying to activate at any other phase or step then they're creating a SEGOC (like 2 copies of "Heart of the Underdog" at the Draw phase creates a SEGOC and they aren't activate separately). Right?

For the Draw phase I think it goes like this:

DRAW PHASE:

(Step 1) The turn player draws a card. If any card effect met her trigger condition now resolve it (SEGOC for simultaneous effects). Then move to step 2.

(Step 2) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a Spell Speed 2 card, or pass. If the TP activates a card, then after the chain resolves, start the process again at Step 2. If the TP passes, move on to Step 3.

(Step 3) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a Spell Speed 2 card, or pass. If the NTP activates a card, then after the chain resolves, start the process again at Step 2. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 4.

(Step 4) The Draw Phase ends. The (NTP) has priority to respond with Spell Speed 2 cards now. Start the Standby Phase.

Also for the Main phase I think it goes like this:

MAIN PHASE:

(Step 1) If any card effect met her trigger condition now resolve it (SEGOC for simultaneous effects). Then move to step 2.

(Step 2) The turn player (TP) may choose to (activate a card, activate an ignition effect, summon a monster, set a card, change monster's battle positions), or pass. If the TP did something, then after any responding, start the process again at Step 2. If the TP passes, move on to Step 3.

(Step 3) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a Spell Speed 2 card, or pass. If the NTP activates a card, then after the chain resolves, start the process again at Step 2. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 4.

(Step 4) The Main Phase ends. The (NTP) has priority to respond with Spell Speed 2 cards now. Start the next Phase. ATEMVEGETA 08:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You can also apply it to every Phase and Step (excluding the Damage Step, since multiple chains are not allowed). The Draw Phase works the same way - it's just that it starts with the Turn Player drawing a card:

(Step 0) The turn player draws a card. Players can respond with Priority. Afterwards, move to Step 1.
(Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a card/effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect), or pass. If the TP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2.
(Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a card/effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect), or pass. If the NTP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3.
(Step 3) If the TP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 4. Otherwise:
•As Step 1, but the TP cannot pass. He MUST activate an effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect). After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 4) If the NTP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 5. Otherwise:
•As Step 2, but the NTP cannot pass. He MUST activate an effect (mandatory, optional, or any Spell Speed 2+ effect). After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 5) The Draw Phase ends. Start the Standby Phase.

For the Main Phase, you can imagine it working the same way. The only difference is that there are more options (activating Normal Spells, Summoning monsters, etc.). Off the top of my head, I can't think of any mandatory "during the Main Phase" effects, which would make a difference on how the Steps take place.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 23:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

But how about the missing the timing with 2 copies of "Heart of the Underdog"'s. With that way they will activate separately. Maybe those steps are only for standby phase, end phase and end step. Besides Curtis Schultz in "Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG Mechanics - Forum Index" prefers these step only at "Resolving Effects in Standby Phase, End Phase, end of Battle Phase". That maybe mean that in other phases the steps are different (like those I gave).

Also didn't at the end of any phase players can respond with card effects (opponent's priority) as this wikia says at "priority"'s page (Priority is also automatically passed when the Turn Player declares an end to any Phase.). ATEMVEGETA 08:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If you have two copies of "Heart of the Underdog", and you draw a Normal Monster, both copies can be activated and you would draw 2 cards.

With my way, after you draw both copies activate and form a chain according to SEGOC. There is no Priority since effects have activated. It's like how the TP doesn't have Priority when they Tribute Summon "Mobius the Frost Monarch". I don't see where I said that the effects need to be activated separately, since both Trigger at the same time.

Remember, "Heart of the Underdog" activates in response to the draw, not in response to it being the Draw Phase. It's the same as the example I gave (about halfway through the page) of "Light Spiral", "Garoth", and "Wulf" forming a chain.

Technically, this also applies to other Phases. The only problem is that I can't think of any Mandatory effects which activate in the Main Phase or Draw Phase, so Steps 3 & 4 are ignored. It would be a lot simpler to explain if I could think of such an effect.

Also, this whole "during the End Phase" thing is just a really complicated example of Priority. The Coles Notes version is:

The Phase doesn not end until both players agree by both players passing. Both at the beginning of the turn and after resolving Priority in response to events, the TP has Priority to activate cards first or pass*. After he passes, the NTP can activate a card or pass**.

If there are Mandatory effects after both players pass, they prevent the Phase from ending, and a player with a mandatory effect must activate an effect/card. If both players have Mandatory Effects, the TP must activate an effect first***. Otherwise, the NTP must activate an effect.****

If there are no Mandatory Effects after both players pass, then the Phase ends.*****

*Step 1
**Step 2
***Step 3
****Step 4
*****Step 5

Personally, I don't like using Priority to describe this, since you're not activating cards in response to anything. Here, the situation is both players going "Um, so...what now?", and it defaults to the Turn Player has Priority to activate something. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 20:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

OK they are all cleared now. It's 1 more last question (I hope). Let's clear up and the Battle step. It goes like this or not?

(Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a Spell Speed 2 card, or pass. If the TP activates a card, then after the chain resolves, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2.

(Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a Spell Speed 2 card, or pass. If the NTP activates a card, then after the chain resolves, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3.

(Step 3) The Turn player must decide if they are conducting a battle this turn. If the turn player is not conducting a battle, he/she must immediately proceed to the End Step. Otherwise: move to Step 4.

(Step 4) The TP declares 1 of his/her monsters to attack with, and then declares 1 of his/her opponent's monsters to attack. The turn player has the priority to respond with Spell Speed 2 cards now. Then move on to Damage Step.

ATEMVEGETA 11:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge, it works the same way as every other phase, but (1) the Turn Player can also declare an attack with applicable monsters and (2) if you declare an attack, at Step 5 you go to the Damage Step. If not, the End Step.

There actually are mandatory effects, like how "Berserk Gorilla" must attack. If you try to end the Battle Step before attacking with it, then Step 3 forces you to activate a card or attack with "Berserk Gorilla".

Also, remember that multiple chains are allowed in the Battle Step. If your "Sakuretsu Armor" is negated with "Seven Tools of the Bandit", then the opponent can still activate "Waboku" during the Battle Step.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 05:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you write the steps? ATEMVEGETA 8:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

  • It would be practically the same as the last time I wrote out the steps. Just add "attack with an eligible monster (if no attack has already been declared during this Battle Step)" to each line, and change Step 5 accordingly. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 06:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

So It should go like this:

(Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a Spell Speed 2 card or declare an attack with an eligible monster (if no attack has already been declared during this Battle Step), or pass. If the TP activates a card or declares an attack, then after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2.
(Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a Spell Speed 2 card, or pass. If the NTP activates a card, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3.
(Step 3) The Battle Step ends. If TP declares an attack in Battle Step then move on to Damage Step, otherwise: proceed to the End Step.

I think that "Berserk Gorilla"s effect isn't mandatory but continuous (as it said in his page), so steps 3 and 4 can be ignored. So if you have "Berserk Gorilla" and he can attack, then at step 1 of the Battle Step the first thing you have to do is declaring an attack with him and then you can activate a spell speed 2 card, or pass. ATEMVEGETA 12:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Resolving "Brain Control" is Mandatory, but it doesn't start a chain either. If you control "Berserk Gorilla", then:

(Step 1) The TP can activate a card, attack, or pass. In this case, he passes.
(Step 2) NTP passes.
(Step 3) "Berserk Gorilla" hasn't declared an attack this turn, so you cannot proceed to the End Step. TP must activate a card or attack with a monster ("Berserk Gorilla" or otherwise).

Remember that "Berserk Gorilla" does not have to be the first monster that declares an attack. It just has to attack during this turn.

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 20:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Remember that "Berserk Gorilla" has a continuous effect not trigger compulsory so you must attack with him at step 1. Also when step 1 of the battle step comes then "Berserk Gorilla" can attack now so he must attack (first). ATEMVEGETA 12:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Check the rulings. "Berserk Gorilla" doesn't have to be the first monster to attack. You're free to activate a card or attack with another monster before you can attack with "Berserk Gorilla".
The only thing "Berserk Gorilla" does is prevent you from entering the End Step without him attacking. In that sense, it's like "Brain Control" - you can «resolve the effect/attack» at any time during the «End Phase/Battle Step» (following the structure of the Phase/Step, of course), you can activate cards before and after the effect, and you can't proceed to the «Draw Phase/End Step» until you resolve it.
--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 21:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


Finally, can YOU write the steps of the Battle Step?

Also discarding a card(s) during the end phase is used at step 5, or it's like a compulsory effect that you carn resolve it anytime (and if it's like a compulsory effect then, if you have to discard more than 1 card then, you can discard them one by one or all of them at once)? ATEMVEGETA 8:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

(Step 1) The turn player (TP) may choose to activate a card/effect, attack with an eligible monster (if no attack has already been declared during this Battle Step), or pass. If the TP activates/resolves any effect or attacks, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the TP passes, move on to Step 2.
(Step 2) The non-turn player (NTP) may choose to activate a card/effect, or pass. If the NTP activates/resolves any effect, then after the effect resolves and after priority, start the process again at Step 1. If the NTP passes, move on to Step 3.
(Step 3) If the TP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 4. Otherwise:
•As Step 1, but the TP cannot pass. He must activate an effect (mandatory or otherwise) or attack. After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 4) If the NTP doesn't have any mandatory effects, move on to Step 5. Otherwise:
•As Step 2, but the NTP cannot pass. He must activate an effect (mandatory or otherwise). After the effect resolves, start the process again at Step 1.
(Step 5) The Battle Phase ends. If a monster attacked, start the Damage Step. If not, start the End Step.

I'm not 100% sure of how discarding during the End Phase would work. To my knowledge, it happens at the very end of the Phase, so at Step 5. It is an exception to the rule since it is a game mechanic. You have Priority to respond to the discard (so "Dark World Grimoire"'s Trigger-like effect, can be activated, but not "Super Rejuvenation" since you have to resolve that separately), but you cannot return to Step 1 afterwards.

Also, all the cards would be discarded simultaneously. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 23:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


I still believe that we can ignore steps 3 and 4 because "Berserk Gorilla" hasn't a COMPULSORY effect since he has not a TRIGGER but a CONTINUOUS effect. Just as you say, TP cannot proceed to the end step before he attack with "Berserk Gorilla". Forget what I said for the first attack.

If we take them as you said, it should be better to change "Berserk Gorilla"s effect to continuous/trigger in his page

Also the same happens with "All-Out Attacks". ATEMVEGETA 8:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Because I believe my way (That "Berserk Gorilla"'s effect isn’t compulsory effect like "Brain Control" that has to be resolved, but is a continuous effect which just didn’t let you proceed to the end step before attacking), and you believe your way (that is a compulsory effect that has to be resolved like "Brain Control"), I think we should better ask “Curtis Schultz” at a UDE forum for sure. Shouldn’t that be better what do you think?

But I have already try to post a new topic in UDE and I cannot, and I didn’t know the reason of that, can you post it instead if you can?

Also you can tell him about the steps.

By the way, can you tell me what’s the matter with UDE and I can’t post? And how to create a new thread? ATEMVEGETA 10:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Berserk Gorilla"'s effect doesn't resolve either. It prevents you from entering the End Step if you didn't declare an attack with "Berserk Gorilla". I'm just using the example of "Brain Control" since you seem to believe that under my way of explaining it, "Berserk Gorilla"'s effect must be a Trigger effects since it is mandatory. We agree on that part, but we don't agree on the result.
You seem to be arguing that while a player controls "Berserk Gorilla", he can't pass at Step 1. Otherwise, after the opponent passed, you would automatically proceed to the End Step, since there's nothing stopping you. I'm arguing that the player can pass at Step 1, and you will not advance to the End Step since "Berserk Gorilla"'s effect kicks in at Step 3. That's why Step 3 (and Step 4) are necessary.
It's the same thing during the End Phase. If you have a mandatory effect which hasn't resolved, then regardless of whether it's Continuous, Trigger, or a lingering effect, you may pass. If the opponent passes, you won't advance to your opponent's Draw Phase since Step 3 kicks in.
I'm not sure how to post in the UDE forum either.
Lastly, my chart with the steps is unofficial, but the way to process a Phase is still done that way. I only broke it up into steps since I find it clearer and more precise this way. They usually explain it heuristically as one large paragraph, but it's the same thing.
--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 23:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


OK. Lets take them as you said. Thanks! ATEMVEGETA 8:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


But even if we take them as you said, can we skip only Step 4? Think about it, what NTP's compulsory effect should have to resolve in TP's Battle Step? ATEMVEGETA 2:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

  • *shrugs* Probably not. You can't enter the End Step if there are mandatory effects left to resolve, so you have to check for both players. Using hypothetical situations is really bad for rulings, but hypothetically if they release a card that must activate during your opponent's Battle Step, we'd have to revise the chart. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 20:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

ΟΚ! ATEMVEGETA 11:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

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