Forum:Compulsory evacuation device vs. wind-ups

I'm looking for a cheap alternative to maxx "c" and fiendish chain against wind-ups, and was wondering if compulsory evacuation device works well, and if not, then what does work well?

Yeah, Comp Evac does break their tempo. Hit their Rat to deny them an Xyz Summon. If you're playing with Ignition Priority disabled, bounce their Zenmaity to utterly break the Hunter loop. A lot of their main monsters have over 1500 ATK as well, so Bottomless Trap Hole is fine too. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 01:48, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

A major weakness to that would be going second as both of those cards need to be set. I have had this discussion before and the only cards that seem to stop it when they do it first turn is the 3 discarding cards, Effect Veiler, D.D. Crow, and Maxx "C". In my opinion that really bites however...

BTW if you find another card that can do something like that please share

Shinkirou 02:58, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Cyber Dragon helps, but if they kill your hand it doesn't really matter unless you can topdeck it like a pro.
Other than cards you have to set before their loop/draw into after, D.D. Crow, Maxx "C" and Effect Veiler are your best bet for stopping them.
123.211.144.181 (talk) 12:01, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

*shift Rat into the def then watch it flying back to hand* Well, I playing "Instant Fusion" to summon Fusionist and troll you to death. --FredCat 12:04, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

O.O but that didn't change anything. I never top deck like a pro, I top deck like I just used Beast Mode Activate.

The reason only those three help (well as far as I know of) is because they require no field to be used, and until more cards like that are made (or more logically wind-ups are hit with the [BAN HAMMER!!!]) the loop will break the game. Can you guys tell me which of the top 3 are the strongest (or really just rate them in 3 spaces).

Mine would be

1. Wind-up

2. Inzekts

3. Dino Rabbit

of course I have run into a wind/inzekt hybrid and it ate my face turn 2...

Shinkirou 00:49, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

I would say:
1 = Wind-Ups.
2 = Rabbits.
3 = Inzektors.
Wind-Ups take little to start the loop, just a way to make a single rank 3 and this doesn't always need to destroy the hand, it could just be used to populate the field.

Rabbit can negate anything, and really only needs to draw into 1 3/40 (rabbit), or 1 2-3/40 (gold sarc) + 1 3/40 (TGU) OR sangan to search for TGU or Rabbit. And once they get rabbit the negation train starts.

I think people are overestimating Inzektors, although in mid->late game they can be devastating they usually take a long time getting the combo going (compared to most decks ofcourse). And really the max cards they can destroy in a turn would be 4, that's if they had a Leviair on the field and summoned a banished Dragonfly.
123.211.144.181 (talk) 02:07, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Would you say Compulsory is better than Solemn Warning, or is SW still better?

Also, I do not understand how Rabbit is immunte to effect negates and stuff.

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 05:23, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

SW is almost always better. The only time CED would be better is if you run a deck that quickly reduces your LP or run a deck like FrogNarchs (even then none's normally better) where a backrow you can always set off is needed.
And about the Rabbit thing check the thread you mentioned Rabbit in [1], it's been answered.
123.211.144.181 (talk) 08:50, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

To say rabbit are better because they can stop potentially any one action is foolish as all you have to do is bait them for that one action (Well you see you either negate my smashing ground or your monster dies and you don't negate anything), but inzektors can hit a lot of cards out of no where and since it's not the actual monsters producing the effect, but the equip card (A recyclable one at that) stardust and other anti destruct is rendered nearly useless.

BTW: IF they had enough time they could do it 5 times in one turn, but it should never need to get that far before someone wins.

Shinkirou 11:11, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that D.D. Crow is expensive also this would be good as it has enough ATK to beat their whole field (exept the zenmaines) LG talk My own Guides 12:27, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

As I said earlier, I don't think inzektors are as good as everyone says.
And you say "a lot of cards out of nowhere", two isn't a lot, and veiler screws that deck over easily.
I say Rabbit is better because it can negate anything, sure you can bait it out but you're still using a card to do that. So that's at the very least a +1 and it sometimes stops their opponent from pushing with cards like Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning because if they have nothing to bait out the negate with they're screwed until they do, and that time could cost them since Laggia isn't hard to bring out.
123.211.144.181 (talk) 14:48, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Out of the three, I would say Inzektors are the most fair. Rabbit (which every player that I have played against using this has always ended up with 2x Rescue Rabbit on every match every time on their first hand) and won the match usually within 3-4 turns. They have a counter for everything I do, even when I get to go first.

Wind-Ups are cheap, but if you can knock out their main attraction, they are done because they are pathetically weak. I now keep 2x Cyber Dragon and a Chimeratech Fortress Dragon in my side deck just for those using Wind-Ups. In fact, I am also looking to get a System Down for my sice deck. I also have Thought Ruler Archfiend in my Extra Deck and 2x Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror in my Side Deck just for Inzektors, but there really is nothing I have for cards like Evolzar Laggia and Evolzar Dolkka at all, as my opponent just happens to be able to counter any Solemns I may have used.

As for the reasons for asking between Warning and Compulsory comes from a game I had last night. The guy used Macro Cosmos and Fissure to banish anything sent to the graveyard. As such, he was able lock me down with cards that come back everytime they are removed from play. The Solemn cards did no good there, but at least with Compulsory, he would not have been able to just resummon them onto the field immediately.

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 18:01, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Considering they can hit 2 cards just by summoning Dragon fly + what ever monsters they already had, and they can do it basically every turn I find that much worse than rabbits. Also isn't losing 2 cards worse than losing 1?

Shinkirou 20:23, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

I haven't had that happen, but yes, it is worse. However, Inzektors can be countered, Rabbits cannot apperantly.

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 20:31, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the Solemns do help. The cards you're referring to are: D.D. Survivor and D.D. Scout Plane. The only thing is that both of those cards need to actually be on the field to come back. Solemn Warning/Judgment negate the summon, so the monster is never considered on the field, and as such can't return. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 21:10, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Found the ruling post I was look for, see the link to see what happens between D.D. Scout Plane and Royal Oppression. The same rule applies to the Solemn cards. Link - Forum:D.D. scout plane vs Royal opprestion.---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 21:13, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

@Shinkirou I would prefer to lose the two, inzektors are easy to stop because you can always only put one card on the field at a time if you don't happen to have a Solemn Warning/Effect Veiler/Chain Disappearance, and that stops their combo continuing because Centipede needs to have something unequipped to get its effect.
Not to mention Inzektors don't stop you from using cards, they just destroy them. Rabbit straight out stops you from doing anything until you can get rid of their Solemns/Material.
And @Kain for Rabbit side Marshmallon/Spirit Reaper since they struggle to get over cards like that and Electric Virus because you can take control of their Laggia and do whatever you like to it, although it being an Xyz it's harder than other monsters to get rid of.
123.211.144.181 (talk) 01:41, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I thought Loggia was a dinosaur. I never thought of Electric Virus on it. However, I can either side 2x D.D. Crow or 2x Electric Virus in my side deck, as it is pretty full (2x Cyber Dragon, Chimeratech Fortress Dragon, MST, 2x BTH, 2x Dimensional Prison, 2x Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror, Light-Imprisoning Mirror, and 2x Rivalry of Warlords). Which do you think of the two is better?

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 03:57, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 03:57, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Inzektors are more broken than you give them credit for. If you use Hornet to blow up your own Giga-Mantis, you will most likely +6-8 that turn. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 04:10, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I find Inzektors hardest to counter. You play cards, you lose them. You play slow, they loop and OTK. (Yes, those weak monsters have a strange way to do that.) Rabbit can be countered pretty easily actually, Bottomless Trap Hole will banish both summoned monsters. Otherwise, there are random cards that can overcome Laggia, making it waste it's effect. Of course, EVERY rabbit player ALWAYS has Pot of Avarice in their hand... And Wind-Ups... a bit harder to counter, try Neko Mane King and lemme know how that goes. Djjomon (talk • contribs) 04:21, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well that's an interesting card. Does it work even if it is removed from your hand?

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 04:28, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Kain read the card.
Was it sent to the grave? Yes: End their turn. No: Don't end their turn.
Is sending it from the hand to the grave to the grave? Yes.
And @SS2, I'm pretty sure Giga-Mantis is a once per turn effect so they can't loop till they're out of Dragonfly's, although there is the opposite to Giga-Mantis (can't remember the name, boosts defence not attack) that could pretty much double the effect. Tbh though, I've never once lost to an Inzektor player, they take way too long to start the combo and by then I've got a solemn set and a veiler in hand.
As I said before, I'm not denying they're good mid to late game, but early game (where most current meta decks excel) they're just way too slow.
123.211.144.181 (talk) 13:48, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I did read the card, but it seems like some cards have these hidden abilities that you are just supposed to know while playing someone (such as Landoise' effect can not be used on Rescue Rabbit or that Grand Mole's effect does not work while he is face down).

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 15:50, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Landoise can totally negate Rabbit. It's Effect Veiler who doesn't work, because Rabbit can be banished with Priority. 207.233.120.2 (talk) 17:10, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure? The guy playing it last week against me said I wasted throwing my spell card into the graveyard becuse Rabbit acts as a speed spell 2 card and it cannot be negated and went on to summon Laggia and creamed me on his second turn. He said he won a regional championship and that is how he won.

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 17:16, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell Naturia Landoise is a SS 2 version of Divine Wrath with a bit more specific cost, but it can also be used any number of times you can pay the cost, and can be used the turn you get it out.

That being said, till someone says other wise, if it is in fact a SS 2 wrath it can negate an effect from any ware so even if the monster is off the field it won't matter, and he lied to you (or a judge incorrectly said other wise).

You could look at Landoises effect, and Divine wraths effect to compare them and then look at the 90% of rulings are answered here section near the top for divine wraths statements.

Shinkirou 17:49, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that effect of Giga-Mantis can only be used once per turn, I just checked. But it is quite devastating when it happens. The combo isn't even well-known, so you very well might have never faced anyone who used it. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 18:19, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Kain, the main ruling problems you'll be having is "Can...", "Must...", When...", "While...", "If...", "from the field to the grave", "to the grave", "destroyed by battle to the grave", etc, I'm probably missing some major ones.
Most people do have trouble with some of these rulings, it's expected really.
And I'm not sure if Naturia Landoise can negate it or not, but as I said in the other thread I'm assuming it can based on veiler, but it might not be able to because veiler has to target a face up monster, since Landoise doesn't specify target 1 monster on the field it may be different.
21:58, March 12, 2012 (UTC)