Forum:Please Define: "Battles" VS "Attacks"

Okay, there are two terms that I continuously see on cards that seem to mean the same thing. Can someone please explain the similarities and differences in detail to me?

The two terms are "Attacks" (Such as "Any monster that attacks a...") and "Battles" (Such as "... If this card battles, negate the effect...") --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 03:37, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

"Attacks" happens before it "battles". LOL sorry for kind of unhelpful comment. What seems to be the problem anyway? Its not like this is gonna give you trouble in a duel. IPlay4Fun (talk • contribs) 04:15, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Batlle = Attacking + be attacked.--Lê (talk • contribs) 04:19, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, you both are wrong. I originally thought that "Attacks" refers to the Order to Attack that a player declares. Such as "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" attacks your "Kuriboh". Following that, I thought that the monsters "Battling" were the monsters in which the damage calculation was calculated. Several examples of how these could be different are shown below:

• Ring of Magnetism - This does not require the opponent to attack the equipped monster, it redirects the attack to this monster.
• Decoy Dragon - Redirects the attack to the Special Summoned Dragon-Type monster.
• Astral Barrier - Changes the attack into a Direct Attack.

In these cases, the "battle" is different than the "attack target". In order: 1 - "Attacked non-equipped monster, Battled equipped monster", 2 - "Attacked Decoy Dragon, Battled Special Summoned monster", 3 - "Attacked monster, Battled opponent directly".

This is apparently NOT TRUE. Supposedly, these two terms are one and the same. They both refer to the battle that Damage Calculation occurs between. Examples follow:

• If I attack a "Watt" Monster and my opponent used "Ring of Magnetism" on their "Kuriboh" while "Wattcastle" was active, I targeted and attacked "Kuriboh". Even though I attacked the Watt Monster. Because I "Attacked" Kuriboh, "Wattcastle" does not activate its effect.
• If I attack my opponent's monster and my opponent chains and activates "Astral Barrier", the attack becomes a Direct Attack. Due to me "Attacking Directly", my opponent can use the effect of "Battle Fader", Even though I am not able to attack Directly while the opponent has a monster on their field.

HOW does the attack change? I know who I attack. I DECLARE it. Who I battle can change but who I attack cannot. Or so I thought. With this interpretation, that I "attack" the monster in which I calculate damage calculation between, there is NO DIFFERENCE between "Attacks" and "Battles". This just brings in even more questions. Look at "Wattmole". The card "Attacks a face-down monster" but Damage Calculation is skipped. HOW does that happen? --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 05:47, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Konami screws up a lot. Looking up their rulings is the best way to figure out how it works. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 05:55, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Konami needs to make up its mind. Either "Attack" is the start of a battle and nothing more, or "Attack = Battled". I am having SERIOUS problems with all the cards that refer to "Battle" or "Attack/Attacking/Attacks". Apparently my opponent can use the Astral Barrier/Battle Fader combo. But it doesn't say "Battles your opponent Directly" or "Would cause Direct Battle Damage". It says "Attacks Directly". So with this, "Attack = Battles" and the "Attack Target" can change to something else. Even something that the original attack could never attack to begin with. This is similar to the Wattcastle/Ring of Magnetism thing above. Even though I "Attack" a Watt monster... I don't.

This is entirely counter productive because if "Attack = Battles" then monsters like "Wattmole" have no monster which they "Attack" because they cannot "attack" a monster that they do not calculate Damage Calculation. So what should I follow if there is no Ruling? --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 06:04, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Too long, read it but I didn't understand everything. I think you should follow the heart of the cards. IPlay4Fun (talk • contribs) 07:18, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Ignoring Iplay4Fun (he's not thinking seriously), "Astral Barrier" does allowed you to attack directly therefore a Battle Damage via the attack directly. If that does happening, then you can play "Battle Fader" easily. It's called "Common Sense", read between the lines and you will get how they work. "Astral Barrier" can making your monster dodging hit the Watt Monster(s) only if they don't have "Ring of Magnetism" equipped. Like with "Prime Material Dragon" and "Bad Reaction to Simochi", Prime Material Dragon overriding the latter - which meaning that "Ring of Magnetism" overriding "Astral Barrier". --FredCat 11:15, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Attack effects activates during your battle phase

Battles effects activates during both player's battle phase--84.53.71.26 (talk) 12:49, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I will try to give each their own answer:

• @ IPlay4Fun, I am trying to figure out a fundamental concept of this game. "Heart of the Cards" does not help.
• @ FredCatt100, For the entire answer, unless otherwise stated, I am using raw English and not terminology of the YuGiOh game. If I am attacking, then I cannot attack my opponent Directly (if I have no effect that allows it and my opponent has a monster). In this case, I Declare an attack against one of the monsters. If my opponent uses the effect of "Astral Barrier", I still did not "Declare a Direct Attack". I declared an attack against ___ monster. My opponent can "Reflect", "Redirect", "Negate", etc... (the attack) but my opponent cannot force me to say "I stop my attack, I declare an attack against you Directly with my ___ monster." I interpret "Attack" as me declaring the attack. If I Attacked you, I could attack you by throwing a rock at you. If you step aside, the attack missed. If you pull someone else in the way of the rock, I hurt that person. I never attacked that person, the attack got redirected. I "Battled" that person but I still "Attacked" you. For the remainder, this will be using YuGiOh terminology. In this case, I would interpret "Attack" as "Declare the Attack against" and "Battle" as "Damage Calculation between". The "Attack" is where certain cards are played. "Mirror Force", "Sakuretsu Armor", "Negate Attack", etc. Afterward, "Attack" seems to dissipate and "Battle" is used. If the "Attack" is redirected, I should still have "Declared an attack against" the original target. For an "Attack" to require the current Battling monsters to be the "Attack", I should be able to use "Negate Attack" all the way through the Damage Calculation because the "Attack" still is happening. Consider the page Breakdown of the Battle Phase: (Under Start/Attack Declaration) "If the Turn Player passes, and the opponent passes as well, the chance to activate cards like "Sakuretsu Armor", "Mirror Force", "Magic Cylinder", etc. is GONE." For your example of "Prime Material Dragon" VS "Bad Reaction to Simochi", That is completely separate from this but is still logical because each can only use its effect once per "damage". One would activate and change the "bonus/damage" into the opposite and the other would reverse it. Then it occurs. That is logical. When faced with monsters like "Wattmole" and being told that "Attack" = "Damage Calculation", that is NOT logical.

@ 84.53.71.26, Sadly, that is a fallacy. The card "Wattcastle" says "Any monster that attacks a "Watt" monster...". This can occur during a Battle Phase that is not my Battle Phase. If there is a distinct difference between "Attack" and "Battle", that is not it.

--LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 18:58, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the one with "Prime Material Dragon" vs "Bad Reaction to Simochi" was meaning for a reference - I am aware that it's separate from this case - but just a reference that Dragon overriding Simochi is similar to "Ring of Magnetism" overriding the effect of "Astral Barrier" ever if the owner of that latter trap card want to using the same said card's effect. It's like "Solemn Warning" overriding the Summoning of monster, making the Effect of the said monster not activating at that time. It's like a forcing of the fate that can stop you from going where you should to go. Seven Tools of the Bandit can negate Solemn Judgment, only with merely of 1000 LP cost over the half of that owner's. "Sakuretsu Armor", "Mirror Force", and anything that "destroying" but not "negating" the attacking monster are overriding the result of damage calculation if it was such to deal if those crap didn't happening. --FredCat 21:44, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

PMD cannot overrider Simochi, FredCat100.--Lê (talk • contribs) 22:34, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, it gets even worse than that. I have always found that "Battle" requires Damage Calculation. "Wattmole" says "Attacks" and destroys the monster before Damage Calculation. I have recently found a monster that activates its effect when it "Battles a Monster": "Gundari". This one says Specifically "Battles a Synchro Monster". Not "When this card Attacks or is Attacked by a Synchro monster." Afterward it says to skip Damage Calculation. Another problem when understanding the difference. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 22:38, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

@Le - Yes "Prime Material Dragon" 'overrides' "Bad Reaction to Simochi". They cancel out each other but technically, they both activate and as such only activate once on each "damage/increase" so it becomes "+LP -> -LP -> +LP" or "-LP -> +LP -> -LP". Neither fails to override the other if both are active. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 22:41, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Then I should create new forum so I won't get this offtopic... Lord G, you can continue the discuss what you original such to do so. --FredCat 23:40, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Wow, is it really that difficult to separate the difference between "Attack" and "Battle"? Well, "attack" is just a one-way situation where the turn player declares a battle, then just "battle" is a two-way situation where the monster is attacking and being attacked. For example, since Skyscraper says "when an Elemental HERO attacks", it allows your attacking Elemental HERO to gain 1000 ATK, but when it's being attacked, it doesn't gain anything. However, Vylon Prism as an Equip Card can give its equipped monster 1000 ATK when it battles. So, in short, battle is just a shorter term of saying "attack or is attacked". if you want another example, look at some Gladiator Beasts. 70.79.73.202 (talk) 03:07, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

That was Rude. Check the above comments and postings. There is a huge difference between the YuGiOh OCG/TCG terms "Attack" and "Battled" than just your dismissive attitude and petty idea. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 03:46, November 12, 2011 (UTC)