Forum:Red dragon archfiend VS "Destroyed by battle"

Alright, as usual I came across a weird situation and I had a Ruling quoted to me that I do not really understand. Concerning "Red Dragon Archfiend", when it attacks a Defense-position monster, it destroys all the opponent's Defense-position monsters with its effect. This I understand. My question instead is why the OCG ruling says that the monster that was attacked is destroyed by that same effect.

Card Rulings:Red Dragon Archfiend: "When "Red Dragon Archfiend" attacks and destroys a Defense Position "Giant Rat", "Red Dragon Archfiend"'s effect destroys "Giant Rat", so "Giant Rat"'s effect is not activated.[2]" (OCG Ruling)

What I understand about the Damage Step (aside the fact that it is VERY easy to misunderstand) is that there are multiple Substeps. Coincidentally, Breakdown of the Battle Phase is an excellent guide to this. As far as I understand, the monsters are destroyed by battle at the end of the Damage Calculation. This relates to Substep 4. Substep 5 deals with effects of monsters that activate immediately after the Damage Calculation and Substep 6 regards effects like FLIP effects. Substep 7 is the time where the monster is sent to the Graveyard and therefore is the time where effects of monsters "destroyed by battle (and sent to the graveyard)" activate. This explains why FLIP effects can not be used on monsters that are destroyed by that battle. Because the monster is already destroyed, it is just in transition to the Graveyard. (Otherwise, I would just return my "Penguin Soldier" over and over and it would be far overpowered.)

What I do not understand is why, if the monster is destroyed when I understand it is (at the end of the 4th Substep), "Red Dragon Archfiend" has its effect destroy the monster. Would not that effect be part of the Substep 5? Would it not be unable to affect the monster because it is already "Destroyed by Battle"? Why does it prevent the effects of monsters like "Giant Rat"?

• Note that I am a player of the TCG. As such, for reference of the OCG for the accuracy of understanding the Ruling, The monster is considered destroyed during the OCG Substep 3, Effects of monsters like "Red Dragon Archfiend" and FLIP monsters occurs as Substep 4, and "Destroyed by Battle" effects (and similar time effects) are Substep 5.

Regardless of OCG or TCG, the monster is deemed "Destroyed by Battle" prior to the effect activating. This is why I do not understand the OCG Ruling. Is anyone able to explain this for me?--LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 09:58, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Follow your logic, Divine Wrath cannot destroy Penguin Soldier?

Anyway, Flip Eff monster cannot effect itself if it is destroyed by battle. Other effects can.--Lê (talk • contribs) 11:20, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I was under the impression that "Divine Wrath" did not need to destroy the monster in order to negate it. As such, I was under the impression that it would negate the monster but would not destroy it because it would already be destroyed. Just the same, I cannot "Compulsory Evacuation Device" a monster that is destroyed by battle so I would assume it would be similar (that you cannot target or use an effect on a monster destroyed by battle). It would be quite interesting to read the specific Ruling that states that FLIP monsters (and only FLIP monsters) are unable to affect themselves solely when they are already considered Destroyed by Battle. Could you please direct me to that Ruling? --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 12:32, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

That is common knowledge. Just stop your impression and read your quoted ruling.--Lê (talk • contribs) 13:35, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

With "When this card is destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard", the implication is that the card is sent to the Graveyard because it is destroyed by battle. In this circumstance, the "Giant Rat" was determined to be destroyed by battle, but ultimately it was sent to the Graveyard because it was destroyed by a card effect.

Divine Wrath does not need to destroy the monster to be able to activate; it can be activated in response to the activation of the effect of a monster that is in the Graveyard. --SnorlaxMonster 03:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

That is actually the purpose of this entire forum. I thought that a card cannot be destroyed while it is already destroyed. Is that not right? It is just so very confusing to me because this seems like a very particular situation where a card is still on the field for an effect while simultaneously also being destroyed prior to the chain with its effect. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 04:46, April 14, 2014 (UTC)