Forum:Veiler situation, A.k.A. what the fuck is going on here?

Ok i hate using the word "fuck" but really, is this an other BKSS situation?

Ok this is the thing. Effect Veiler has an effect the imitates skill drain, forbidden lance, and fiendish chain. that is well known for people. Veiler however doesn't imitate herald of the orange light, Divine Wrath, or Evolzar Dolkka. Veiler has an effect that can be activated at any time of any of the main phases. It targets a monster and it decides that that monsters will have it's effect(s) negated, if it doesn't leave the field, and until the end phase of the opponent is reached, at wich point the turn player will decide at what point the effect of effect veiler will stop taking effect.

Up until now, i have been explaining things that most of you, if not all, already know. The problem here is a contradiction, that, as someone who has been a judge since a long time ago, and confused so few times that can be counter with the fngers in one hand, just makes my head wanna play headbumps with the wall.

The contradiction starts here, in veiler versus effects that aren't resolved on the field. I'll name some effects, but i want you to realise that they are all bassically the same condition of activation. Let's mention veiler versus, exiled force, Stardust Dragon, rescue cat, recue rabbit and many more. Well, if you know those, you will realise that they have effects that activate on the field, but that resolve in different places.

At the start of this forum i said that veiler is, kinda, like a mini skill drain. what does skill drain say? what does veiler say? That, activate effects, you can activate all of the effects you want, but, if, at the moment of resolution, they are still on the field, then, they will resolve, but without effect. I wanna quote this [1]

• If the targeted monster is no longer face-up on the field when Effect Veiler's effect resolves, the targeted monster's effect(s) will not be negated.

Up until there, nothing makes no sence. I have played tournaments, and even games, such as the tag force series, in wich, these all make sence.

But here is the situation.

• Effect Veiler: If you target Exiled Force with Effect Veiler and your opponent Tributes Exiled Force to activate its effect later in the turn, the effect of Exiled Force will be negated. A.k.A. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)

Exiled force, tributes himself as a cost, wich means, that after it activates, it is no longer on the field. If macro cosmos is on the field, it will be removed, if it isn't it'll go to grave. where it goes doesn't matter now. It matters where it isn't. It isnt on the field.

Now, to shorten up this a little, my question is bassically, what does this mean? I wanna cover as well that i'm not asking in any way what happens with priority. i am saying, for example, I veiler a stardust, and then, not in chain, i use raigeki break, to destroy something. I am asking why does the effect of stardust, doesn't resolve properly. I am asking where, in all of that wall of text, did i go wrong? And, please, if you are not sure, don't comment. I am asking for the help of either someone who is certain for sure, or someone who works in konami, and given that it is not probable that i find one, i ask for the answer, explanation, and confirmation, of someone who is 100% certain. Thanks in advance. --Yes, im Pato (talk • contribs) 01:35, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Censor those language please. "Effect Veiler" required a monster to be face-up on the field to triggering her effect and discarded herself from hand. Yes, Tribute is a Cost; but rest of the other effect... still negated. I have been nailing with a bunch of nails and drills; "Stardust Dragon" himself activate and resolve on the field, therefore he can negate the destruction while he went to the Graveyard OR Banish; but if you used Veiler on that dragon, then he's just a poor Richard's soul that can't shot a bullet. Or Konami maybe want to try something different - instead of same old bored stuffs, I counter you, you stopped dat! So they just created Veiler to be that way; lagging a little and whoopie, I missed it! --FredCat 02:05, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

tldr, it's probably stuff about the most common question about this card.

Read my post at Forum:Effect Veiler vs Stardust Dragon.

and it's actually straight forward... -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:09, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Bottom line is, you can chain Effect Veiler to Stardust Dragon even though its already in outer space --Mhello (talk • contribs) 02:35, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

No that's wrong. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:41, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Of course it can't be activated in respionse, I'm just asking for a reason that people say that stardust resolves on the field, when it clearly doesn't, cause, once the tribute is paid, it is no longer on the field, therefore, there is no way it resolves on the field. --Yes, im Pato (talk • contribs) 03:03, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Seriously? Did you even read what I said? "Card effects ALWAYS activate and resolve in the EXACT SAME place, regardless of where the card ends up. The actual card does not have anything to do with where the effect resolves. "

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:18, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

seriously? sober and you say that? so skill drain negates everything, since they activate on the field? what have you smoked? effects activate in one place, and they can resolve in an other place. You are saying that if i have a raioh that was selected with a fiendish chain, then, when i send him to grave, it cant negate? read yourself bro. That makes less than none sence. --Yes, im Pato (talk • contribs) 03:25, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

It is how the game works. If you reject that, then I don't give a damn, just don't complain about it.

Read the last OCG ruling at Card Rulings:Trap Stun if you want an official comment.

As for Fiendish Chain, it is Continuous Trap Card that continually targets the monster on the field. Once it loses its target (Tributed for cost), it will no longer be negated.

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:34, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think you are misinterpreting the effect here. It as far as I can tell says you cannot chain to exiled forces effect, however if he is already affected by EV then his effect will be negated.

It resolves in the grave - So that is where the effect would occur, but it activated on the field. It says in the ruling it will negate only effects that ACTIVATE, or APPLY in the field. IT WILL NOT APPLY TO AN EFFECT THAT ACTIVATES IN THE GRAVE.

Unlike Skill Drain which only negates effects for as long as they are occurring on the field. EV negates anything that starts or ends on the field.

Saying to cards are similar (THOUGH NOT THE SAME) does not make all of their rulings apply to the other...

While EV and SD are similar they have very different wording. If this doesn't help you figure out the difference good luck...

Shinkirou 03:53, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think i get your point Shinkirou, but it's a singular thing i have never seen in 5 years of playing the game. I still don't see the difference between

• Negate the effects of all other Trap Cards on the field.
• Negate the effects of all other Trap Cards on the field.

If you are wondering, first effect is the newest errata of trap stun, and the second one is decree. yet one works with emergency provitions and one doesn't.

Same happens for veiler and skill drain. I don't see how veiler can negate something, that activates on the field, and continusly negate it, even if it is booked, cause, otherwise, chain 1 morphing jar, chain 2 veiler, chain 3 book, would leave the morphing jar effectless. same thing for every1 that books a monster that has been veilered. it'd make no sence otherwise. --Yes, im Pato (talk • contribs) 04:04, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Effect Veiler's 4th ruling says

If the effect of Effect Veiler resolves, and the targeted monster is then flipped face-down, its effect(s) will NO longer be negated, even if it is flipped face-up again later that turn.[1]

Shinkirou 04:08, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

No, as I have said multiple times, the effect of Exiled Force activates on the field AND resolves on the field. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:10, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Falzar my point was it resolves with Exiled force in the grave I see no differentiation between where an effect activates or resolves because it is the activate that generally matters, and by time an effect is resolving as far as I am aware nothing can be done.

Shinkirou 04:17, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Falzar, it doesnt resolve on the field, but, as low as it is, it makes a little sence that both forbidden lance and veiler target a monster, they negate it goes where it goes. exiled force will RESOLVE IN GRAVE, so skill drain can't negate it. --Yes, im Pato (talk • contribs) 04:21, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

TIP: If you know NOTHING about this game, be quite and listen!

Stardust/etc. activate its eff on the field, its card is tributed for cost, but the eff still stay on the field, so it can be negated by Veiler. Skill Drain needs the monster's card as its agent. If the agent disappear, it cannot tough the effect. END.--Lê (talk • contribs) 04:27, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

@Pato. Hope this helps to simplify matters. The basic rule of thumb to follow is as Falzar stated, "Card effects ALWAYS activate and resolve in the same place". If you don't accept this statement, well I don't think we'll be able to help explain it any further. So moving along, exiled force activates on and thus resolves on the field. Even if exiled force is tributed as a cost and ends in grave, where its effect resolves is where it was activated(ie on the field). Like how honest/veiler/fader/gorz activate and resolve in hand(instead of grave/field), malicious in grave(instead of rfg) etc. From there, because exiled force resolves on the field, veiler/chalice would negate it. The difference with skill drain is that skill drain only cares about the physical location of the card upon resolution as compared to veiler who only looks at where it resolves. Tributed as a cost, exiled force is no longer FACE-UP(note this is stated on skill drain) on the field at resolution so skill drain doesn't do a thing to it. Hope this helps.Renz0kuken (talk • contribs) 04:34, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Why is there so much confusion? Listen to what Falzar, MK94, and Ren are telling you, they're all right. Skill Drain stops affecting monsters that tribute themselves because it goes by the physical location of the card. Veiler does NOT care about the Physical location of the card. However, if the monster is tributed before Veiler can be played, Veiler won't work because it has to target a monster on the field. Effects activate and Resolve in the same place. Necro Gardna resolves in the grave, Honest resolves in hand, and Exiled Force Resolves on the field. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 04:38, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

P/S: If you need an understandable example about "Card effects ALWAYS activate and resolve in the same place", let's imagine about Taliban and Obama:

If a suicide bomber want to kill Obama, he has to trigger his bomb first and blow up himself, at that moment, his soul will go to hell. The problem is, what will happen to the explosion? Will it be moved to hell with the suicide bomber's soul and kill Obama from hell? Or it still stay at this world and kill Obama as a normal explosion?--Lê (talk • contribs) 04:39, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

That is the best way I've ever seen anyone describe Game Mechanics. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 04:42, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

I want to know how I am wrong though...

Shinkirou 04:40, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

"Card effects ALWAYS activate and resolve in the same place". Clear?--Lê (talk • contribs) 04:41, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

I already rectified that part. I meant how am I wrong about EVs ruling?

Veiler will negate any eff activated/applied on the field, even if the card is sent to grave later. It doesn't care about the card. Skill Drain DOES care.--Lê (talk • contribs) 04:47, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, Thanks for everyone who hasn't been a dick about me not knowing a single thing, le thanks for stopping by, i do not thank you for being a bitch to someone who is asking cause is uncertain of something. The gardna/malicious situation makes sence, therefore explaining why those effects can be negated by shadow-imprisoning mirror. There was a problem, cause, once the effect is resolving, the effect of something is treated as it is resolving in the place it activated, yet, the monster is not at that place, once the effect is resolving, wich doesn't completely make sence, but w/e, and, the bomb metaphore, well, it helped a little, so thanks for the effort as well. Again, Thanks to anyone who was not a dick about me not getting this. --Yes, im Pato (talk • contribs) 04:49, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

@skull/pato. I believe the confusion is just that in the past it was easier to explain why exiled force vs skill drain worked by saying it resolved in the grave(note, EASIER but not correct). Once effect veiler or the like appeared which cared about the proper resolution location, this old explanation(which worked to explain skill drain) just contradicted it. At least that was the problem I faced when I tried to understand it. Hope you get it too now.Renz0kuken (talk • contribs) 04:53, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Hold up hold up people. What the hell is going on here?! There is far too much commotion going on here and I need to know something. Effect Veiler is a... girl?

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 05:14, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Obviously.--Lê (talk • contribs) 05:27, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Huh, that doctor sure took a while to realize Veiler as female... I immediately know that Veiler was a girl when she made an appearance in Anime (I knew I can't judge the appearance by cover; but I looked at the face and viola). --FredCat 12:20, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

1. Which anime did Veiler appear in? And which episode? If it was in GX, I did not watch anything beyond the first season. If it was in 5Ds, I only watched the first 64 episodes and then the 6 parter with Team Ragnarok. If it was ZeXaL, yeah, I gave up after the 5th episode.

2. Effect Veiler looks like a boy to me.

3. They are cards, do genders really matter?

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 17:11, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

5D's since she's a Tuner - which never exist in GX. And she was used by Yusei Fudo himself. The episode she first appeared in was 89th of 5D's. She was showing being discarded by Yusei to negate the Lawton's "Gatling Ogre" effect on Lawton's first turn. Also, look at the MISC listed in that article; it was only "Female" post there. She maybe flat-chested but is indeed female. --FredCat 17:35, April 3, 2012 (UTC)