Forum:DO PIERCING EFFECTS STACK?

Say you have a Piercing monster, like Saber Beetle or Bitelon. If you activate a card that gives it Piercing, like Slash Strike, does your opponent take double the Piercing damage? It seems to me like they would, because each Pierce says your opponent "takes battle damage equal to the difference", so after both effects activate, would your opponent take double the Piercing damage?

• I don't believe so because you can only take battle damage once, if that was burn damage it may be different. Dmaster (Talk • Contribs • Count) 18:31, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
  • Dmaster is right; piercing damage is considered Battle Damage, not Effect Damage. As such, it only happens once during Damage Calculation regardless of how many piercing effects the monster would have. Danny Lilithborne 20:07, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
• actually it would work. Simply because the spell card is inflicting damage not the monster. So if you were to equip a spell that gives piercing damage to a monster that already has piercing damage. The result would be double piercing damage. Because your opponent will be taking damage from the effect of your monster as well as from your equip spell card. For an example if i have neo parshath with a equiped fairy meateor crush and my opponent has a def of 0. If i attacked the def position monster then the result would be a total of 4600 damage to your opponent. Simply because your opponent would be taking 2300 from your parshath as well as another 2300 from your spell card.—This unsigned comment was made by 72.130.225.198 (talk • contribs) 06:55, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

No they don't and stop trying to say they do. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 06:57, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Actually it would work. For an example if i Were to equip fairy meateor crush to my opponents monster and he were to atk my defense position monster. Then my opponent would take the piercing damage not me. Knowing that official ruling i can say that the monster equiped with the spell card does not gain pircing damage but rather the equip spell card is inflicting effect damage(treated as battle damage) equal to the difference of the atk and defence of the monsters. So in other words ANY EQUIP SPELL CARD THAT HAS THE EFFECT OF PIERCING DAMAGE IS INFLICTING THE DAMAGE NOT THE CARD ITS EQUIPED TO.So if i have a monster that has piercing damage with an equip spell card that has the effect of piercing damage. Then the result would be double piercing damage because the monster and the spell card are both giving effect damage(that is treated as battle damage) equal to the difference between the atk of the attacking monster and the def of the deffending monster. Also as a little fun example if my opponent has a cyber end dragon that is equiped to a fairy meateor crush i controle and i have a defence position monster with a def of 0. If my opponent were to atk the result would be both of us would take 4000 battle damage because i would be taking 4000 effect damage(treated as battle damage) from his monster, and he would be taking 4000 effect damage (treated as battle damage) from my spell card—This unsigned comment was made by 72.130.225.198 (talk • contribs) 07:40, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Now you're just being stubborn. I provided a rulings page for this and you persist. Stop making things up. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 08:20, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

There is a ruling that says if you equip an opponent's Enraged Battle Ox with Fairy Meteor Crush, then ONLY the effect of Enraged Battle Ox will apply.

There will never be double pierce. Ever.

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:22, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

if there is a ruling can u give me the link. because i cant seem to find the one you mentioned. also if you cant come up with an official ruling then can you at least prove why they do not stack up—This unsigned comment was made by 72.130.225.198 (talk • contribs) 02:03, March 8, 2012

"You cannot double the effect of "Fairy Meteor Crush" by equipping two copies to the same monster" --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 09:07, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Any of these

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 09:17, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

just out of curiosity are these official rulings from konami or are they from upper deck entertainment. because if they are not from konami then i do not think they can be considered official rulings—This unsigned comment was made by 72.130.225.198 (talk • contribs) 09:19, March 8, 2012

Unless Konami says something contradictory, UDE rulings can be used. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 09:22, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

also just in-case you cant read the page said that those were PREVIOUSLY OFFICIAL rulings and as such they are no longer treated as official rulings. which ultimately makes this topic up for debate.

PREVIOUSLY OFFICIAL rulings = They are offical until Konami specfically deny them.--Lê (talk • contribs) 10:22, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

To make clear for future reference; all Piercing Damage on 1 monster does NOT stacking - they are treated as "Battle Damage" (due to them being the one back before they were change into Problem Solved lore) therefore that you only inflicted to your opponent once per monster that have "Piercing Damage" equipped or actually using it (such as "Enraged Battle Ox").

Of course, they are unofficial in Konami's sight, but they can still stand true - such as "Van'Dalgyon the Dark Dragon Lord" can't be negated by "Solemn Judgment" (parried to be previous official rulings) while he can be negated by "Solemn Warning". --FredCat 12:38, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that they can be used as the rules of the game until konami actually agrees or contradicts the ruling. However even if it is an official ruling it can still be wrong. Knowing that. It is absolutly logical to contradict something that has not been proven right. The reasone why i contradict on this matter is simply because i belive people are misinterpreting what the effects actually do. This is the card lore for fairy meteor crush (" When a monster equipped with this card attacks with an ATK that is higher than the DEF of a Defense Position monster, inflict the difference as Battle Damage to your opponent.".). What i keep saying is that the effect is actually effect damage that is ultimatly treated as battle damage. Now what it means by "as Battle Damage" in the card lore is that the effect damage will be treated as battle damage not effect damage. This only means that if a player were to activate a effect that would negate effect damage it would do nothing because the Actual effect damage is treated as battle damage and as such it can not be effected by something that would target effect damage even if it is effect damage( this is exacly the same as on monster card that said that its attribute was treated as another, and as such would no longer be treated as the original printed attribute unless it said that its attribute is also treated as(example odark) like in light and darkness dragon). Now if the card lore was this " When a monster equipped with this card attacks with an ATK that is higher than the DEF of a Defense Position monster, inflict the difference to your opponent". The words (as battle damage) have been removed and as such any logical person would easily say that the effect of the card lore is effect damage. However with the words back it would still be effect damage only it would now be considerd battle damage. Now knowing all that. As well as knowing effect damage stacks. Any logical person would easily state that piercing damage will stack simply because it is actually effect damage that is treated as battle damage. Also battle damage does not necessarily have to originate in a battle. For an example if i had a card that were to state that "any time a monster is summoned inflict 1000 points as battle damage to your opponent". Then it would esentially prove that battle damage does not have to come from a battle.

I also appoligize for any spelling errors gramer errors and typos. I was speed typing and as such those were unavoidable

You have 3 people of this wikia telling you:'It's an apple',and you keep saying,'no it's clearly a volcano'....it's battle dmg treated as battle dmg except a few situations where it is actually treated as battle dmg. deal with it.you are wrong.This is not a conspiracy to hide the truth from the public..S4suk3g13 (talk • contribs) 03:44, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Let me put it in really easy words:

• Piercing is treated as BATTLE DAMAGE, and not effect damage, Piercing is not considered part of effect damage, so guess what? Battle Damage does not stack, and cards that Pierce don't inflict any effect damage at all, just battle damage (Like it says on the actual cards, for people who don't read the actual cards.)
• We aren't removing any words from the effects,because that creates more confusion, so Effect Damage is not equal to Battle Damage, even with cards that Pierce. Leave it at that. So listen to the other 3 people who answered your thread, and let it go.

---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 04:09, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

And if you really want, go email Konami's ruling department, they'll tell you the exact same thing we did. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 04:13, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

• Konami's ruling department, any judge anywhere, any half-decent player whose been in the game for longer than 15 seconds will tell you that. Just to clarify.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 04:14, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

This time read all of this instead of just making assumptions. What i am trying to say is that piercing is actually effect damage that is treated as battle damage, and because effect damage stacks up piercing damage will as well. except it will not be counted as effect damage. Instead it will be counted as battle damage. Also the reason why i took words out of the card text was to show what the effect was actually doing. when people think of battle damage most people would think it to be originated in a battle. this is true in many cases. however battle damage can also come from things outside of a battle. In these cases it is effect damage that is treated as battle damage. But because the damage originated as effect damage and effect damage can stack. The result would be double piercing damage(or more depending on how many piercing effect are in your control). This effect of being effect damage that's treated as battle damage is also exactly the same as battle damage being treated as effect damage as seen in the monster gravekeeper's vassal. check it out for your self on http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gravekeeper%27s_Vassal. THERE i proved that effect damage can be treated as battle damage by comparing it to gravekeeper's vassal. Also to prove that effect damage can stack up(which i doubt i need to). Here is a little scenario if i have 2 Athena(http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Athena on the field) on the field and a fairy-type is summoned then the effect damage would stack up resulting in 1200 damage, and not 600. well prove me wrong now

That's your logic, not Yu-Gi-Oh! logic. In YGO!, "As Battle Damage" = "This was not Effect Damage, this is not Effect Damage, this will be not Effect Damage".--Lê (talk • contribs) 05:18, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Look if you really want to prove me wrong then you will have to prove me wrong like how i am trying to prove me right. In other words stop talking and prove your theory. Thay is if you can.

Indeed. YGO! is an undebatable game. Just like we cannot discusss about "Why a WATER mons with 100 ATK cannot beat a FIRE mons with 3000 ATK?"--Lê (talk • contribs) 06:45, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

wow kid. i applaud your stubbornness. haha. but no. piercing do not stack. the equip cards and any other effects which allows a monster to inflict piercing damage is simply added onto the monster. for example, equipping a monster with fairy meteor crush. imagine as if the ability to pierce was written right on the monster card itself. that's what equipping does. think of it as giving the monster more effects. so if the monster already has the ability to pierce, then it would be redundant to state it twice on the card. as for your example of the two athenas, it's 1200 because it is two separate cards, and they don't add onto each other. the effects are independent of eachother. 108.237.240.107 (talk) 07:00, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

omg what a idiot. allow me to explain something to you. the equip spell card does not simply augment the ability to the monster. any non nube player will tell you that. instead they have the effect all on there own. so if i were to equip fairy meteor crush to my monster and attack a def position monster the spell card will be inflicting the damage not the monster. also my double piercing will work simply because there are two different cards that are the source of the damage. for an example if i have a neo-parshath http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Neo-Parshath,_the_Sky_Paladin equipped with a fairy meteor crush, and attack a def position monster with 0 def. the result will be 4600 damage because when my neo-parshath is inflicting 2300 points of effect damage(that is treated as battle damage) my fairy meteor crush will also be dealing another 2300 in effect damage(that is treated as battle damage) Also to prove to you that equip spell cards do not augment the equipped monster and that the equip spell card is the actual source of the effect check out the last paragraph on http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Piercing here is a quote ("An interesting side-effect of Equip Spell Cards that give Piercing, is that you can inflict damage to your opponent by equipping them to your opponent's monster(s). Then, when your opponent attacks one of your Defense Position monsters with an ATK greater than your monsters DEF, he/she will take the difference. After all, even though it's your opponent's monster, it's your Spell Card, and thus it's your opponent — not you — who takes the extra damage, due to the wording on the cards.") oh and by the way. about the thing you said about the Athena's. you are also dead wrong about that as well simply because the effect of the Athena activate at the exact same time resulting in a effect damage stack of 1200.

2 Athena don't infict damage at the same time. Their eff form a chain and resolve step-by-step.--Lê (talk • contribs) 08:44, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

• Just leave him be. He's either a troll, an idiot or an awful player. Probably some combination of all three. If explaining to him time and time again, and if showing him rulings pages and other sources which prove your point doesn't work, nothing will. If he tries this in a game, he'll get smacked down. No point trying to convince him here.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 13:55, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed with YamiWheeler. Obviously he'll never listen. I showed him a ruling directly from Card Rulings:Fairy Meteor Crush, Falzar showed him at least 10 places talking about a ruling about Enraged Battle Ox, and 3-4 other people told him how wrong he is but it's not good enough for him. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 18:53, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

The best way I can think to put is is: The effect says that it deals Piercing damega, the other says the same. That is the same as if 2 DNA surgeries were active, and you say that machine king would get a double bonus because all monsters become machines twice. Effects like that are redundant. If you were to use secret pass to the treasure on ooguchi, it doesn't get to attack directly twice. Tyrantglider (talk • contribs) 18:59, March 9, 2012 (UTC) Tyrantglider

That's a really good comparison, but I'm sure he still won't listen/keep trolling. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 19:01, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

actually that's not a good comparison. a more accurate one would be like having 2 Athens's(represents the 2 cards with piercing damage) on the field when a fairy is summoned which will deal 1200 damage even do only 1 monster has been summoned(represents the single attack). the only thing this example lacks is the transaction from being treated as effect damage to being treated as battle damage. which is the exact opposite of gravekeepers vassal effect(http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gravekeeper%27s_Vassal)(Battle Damage this card inflicts to your opponent is treated as Effect damage instead.) also on the yugioh piercing page(http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Piercing) IN THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE IT SAYS THAT IT IS "TREATED AS BATTLE DAMAGE"(and because it is not natural battle damage it means that it was originally treated as effect damage). here is the philosophy on battle damage: the only known natural battle damage (just monster vs monster with no text or effect involved in the battle) is when a monster attacks another attack position monster with a atk that is less or higher than the other monsters atk. or when a monster attacks a defense position monster with an atk that is lower than the monsters def. also when a monster attacks a player directly. those are the only original and natural battle damage(as in they did not start out as an effect). also the only known unnatural battle damage needs an effect to be treated as battle damage (piercing effects), and because they originate as effects they will act like effects(which means they will stack like the Athena's in my example) except the only difference is that they are treated as battle damage(which only means that they can only be negated by effects that target battle damage). which is the exact opposite of gravekeepers vassal effect(Battle Damage this card inflicts to your opponent is treated as Effect damage instead.) who's battle damage is treated as effect damage. now one last thing that i need to say. RULINGS CAN BE WRONG. simply because they are the makers of the game and they created the cards does not mean that they are gods that never make mistakes. i mean come on a long time ago we believed the world was round. which proves just because an idea is common it does not have to be true. also i know people are not reading my entire report which is resulting in unfriendly comments and stupid reply's. SO READ THE ENTIRE THING INSTEAD OF JUST GETTING SCARED BECAUSE ITS TOO LARGE FOR YOUR LITTLE BRAINS (WHATS THE MATTER NO PICTURES).

Instead of telling us that, go Email the people at Konami. Their contact info can be found on YGO-Card.com, then just go to the country in which you live. We've given you that we know and think. If you don't believe us or even care about what we say, go email them, and stop bumping this thing up. And I did read everything before I posted, and the fact is your wrong, go email Konami, and have them tell you. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 02:10, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

oh and by the way have u noticed how my post are 10 times larger that yours. that's because i am actually proving my statements.

• Maybe if you didn't write a giant wall of text of nonsense, used paragraphs and punctuation, then people'd find it easier to read your drivel. What's the matter, grammar too complex for your peamush of a brain? And by the way, it's not the size that matters, it's the content, and your content is trash. Finally, obvious troll is obvious.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 02:12, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Everyone just ignore him. If he tries to pull this crap at a regionals, a Judge will explain to him how wrong he is. If he argues with the Judge, he'll get thrown out. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 02:31, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

I think his major issue was he saw that in the ruling as to how it can be summed up as saying "This cards effect chooses who takes the damage", and mentally took it as saying this cards effect is what deals the damage, but when I see the guys who answer nearly any question I see on the forum all contradict him it just makes me think less of him for trying to argue past that point...

As for stacking that to me would not have crossed my mind as it would make a card as common as Dragon's Rage quite abusable if you managed to get more than one out in disaster dragon.

Shinkirou 02:35, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

i have sent a email to konami and i am waiting for a reply. however until i get the reply i would very much like to have fun debating with you gyz. also can u stop doing lousy reply's and prove your statements without relying on an official ruling unless you can explain how the official ruling makes sense. for an example i will prove how machine king b. cant inflict damage even with the help of fairy meteor crush(http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Card_Rulings:Beast_Machine_King_Barbaros_%C3%9Cr) the spell card fairy meteor crush will not inflict effect damage (treated as battle damage) because when the timing of the effect damage takes place machine kings effect also takes place.(When this card battles, any Battle Damage to your opponent becomes 0.) and because fairy meteor crush's effect damage is treated as battle damage, and activates when the monster battles. It is negated.

also about the dragons rage. that is a perfect example of double piercing(triple if the dragon already has piercing as its own effect. hmmmmmm how about this from now on instead of us calling it stacked piercing or double piercing. lets call it multi piercing. as there are multiple cards inflicting effect damage treated as battle damage.

We've tried to explain how the rules work, but you just ignore our explanations and post a bunch of tl;dr nonsense. You yourself just referred to Piercing damage as Battle damage, yet you insist that it works like effect damage, and your reasoning is just something you came up with rather than something from the actual rulebook or from a judge. Piercing damage is not "effect damage treated as Battle damage". That's why it is called Piercing Battle Damage. You have been very stubborn and if you keep acting like that, no one will ever want to help you if you ever have a legitimate question. And, if you keep necrobumping forums like you did last night, you will make a lot of enemies on here. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 02:45, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

• What kind of legitimate player argues a mechanic by saying "Let's ignore the official ruling on the matter and use some sort of twisted logic to decide how it works instead." There is no opinion to this. There is only fact. The rulings are right, you are wrong. Like I said, obvious troll is obvious. Seriously, let's all just stop engaging him. And as for making enemies, I think I can safely say that ship has definitely sailed far away.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 02:49, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

enemies. i don't care how many. look dude it is treated as battle damage. but it does not originate as battle damage. it originates as effect damage. then with another effect it is treated as battle damage which is a very similar effect as gravekeepers vassal http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gravekeeper%27s_Vassal. also (even do i already said this) in the very first sentence of piercing http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Piercing. it states Piercing is TREATED as battle damage. but you see piercing damage originates as an effect that causes damage(effect damage) it is then put thru a transaction from effect damage to battle damage. this is absolutely a VERY SIMILAR transaction like gravekeepers vassal http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gravekeeper%27s_Vassal.

the only known damages are battle damage and effect damage. a transaction between the two can take place but how it originally acts stays exactly the same.

Explain to me how Gravekeeper's Vassal is relevant. He treats his own battle damage as effect damage through his effect. Piercing Battle damage effects are just effects that modify the rules of Battle damage. I have no idea where you are getting these ridiculous notions. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 03:03, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

there are only 2 types of damage . the first is damage that does not originate as an effect this is battle damage. the second is damage that originates as an effect this is effect damage. now the thing about piercing is it is an effect that inflicts damage(effect damage) when a specific monster attacks with an atk that is higher than the def of a defending monster. it is then given another effect that changes what damage it is treated as (effect or battle damage). this effect of changing what damage it is considered to be is exactly the same as gravekeepers vassal http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gravekeeper%27s_Vassal and all effect that do this will usually have the text "as Battle Damage" or "as effect damage". in piercing the card text is "inflict the difference AS BATTLE DAMAGE". in the text of gravekeeper's vassal (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gravekeeper%27s_Vassal) the text states "Battle Damage this card inflicts to your opponent is TREATED AS EFFECT DAMAGE INSTEAD instead." there that is my prove as why gravekeeper's vassal is a logical comparison.

also someone(i don't know who. WAS NOT ME, could be konami) has updated the text on the first paragraph of piercing http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Piercing. this is what they said ----> "PIERCING IS BATTLE DAMAGE THAT ORIGINATES FROM A CARD EFFECT and is characterized by the following card lore: During battle between this attacking card and a Defense Position monster whose DEF is lower than the ATK of this card, inflict the difference AS BATTLE DAMAGE to your opponent. This lore has now changed to If this card attacks a Defense Position monster, inflict piercing Battle Damage to your opponent. after the release of Problem-Solving Card Text."

Done. I can't do it anymore. You will never understand. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 04:31, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

look dude piercing damage is not a change to the original battle damage rules. its a effect that deals effect damage then transacts the effect damage to battle damage. if i were to equip a monster with piercing with a equip spell card that has piercing. the result will be multi piercing as both the monster and the spell card will be dealing two copies of the same effect damage that is then treated AS BATTLE DAMAGE. the spell card does not give the effect to the monster. instead what it does is it inflicts effect damage when the attacking monster battles with a defense position monster, and then changes what the type of damage it is treated as. and when a monster with the piercing damage attacks it is also dealing effect damage when it battle, and then the type of damage it deals is changed to battle damage. when it changes what type of damage it deals it only means that it can no longer can be targeted by effects that target effect damage, and that it now can be targeted by effects that target battle damage. this is exactly the same as a monster with the effect to change what attribute it is considered to be. so for a example if the monster was light and now dark: it can no longer be targeted by spells and traps that target light monsters, and it can be targeted by effects that target dark monsters.