Forum:September 2012 Banlist

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Revision as of 06:59, 22 August 2012 by 66.91.199.222 (talk) (→‎My Thoughts)
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It's official, on Shriek.

Banned:

Limited:

Semi-Limited:

Unlimited:

Lappyzard (talk • contribs) 16:26, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

We already knew, thank you. --iFredCat 16:43, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
It has been put there as a point of reference for the discussion. --SuperSponge!! 16:52, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

My thoughts

Guess I'll start off the discussion. I'll start by saying how much better this list is than the March one, which proves that Konami can make good lists.

  • Future Fusion Forbidden - This card had it coming. If Dragons open with this, it'll take a miracle to beat them. It's even better in Dragons than Painful Choice, and that's Forbidden. I feel sorry for Gem-Knight Master Dia and Vision HERO Trinity, who will be unplayed now that they can't be used with this card for a quick dump of 3 monsters.
  • Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier Forbidden - Brionac has been the best Level 6 Synchro since Goyo Guardian was Forbidden, but I'm undecided as to whether he needed this treatment. Especially since we now have to use Orient Dragon or Gaia Knight, the Force of Earth for a Level 6 Synchro (or Flamvell Uruquizas if we really don't want to use the other 2).
  • Spore Limited - It remains to be seen whether Plants will gain new ground again with this card back. All I know is, Limited makes no sense, and if it turns out to be fine for the format, it could be at 3 and wouldn'd make a difference.
  • Tsukuyomi Limited - I'm worried about the Mask of Darkness/Drop Off loop, but otherwise I can't see this making such a huge impact competitively. Ironically, despite having said that, I myself have 3 deck that would love this card (Gravekeeper's, Worms and a deck that relies on switching the opponent's monster to Defense Position to destroy them with cards like Shield Crush).
  • Ultimate Offering Limited - I can't complain here, especially not with the Madolches so close to release. They and Gadgets just spammed this card.
  • Chaos Sorcerer Limited - Yes, I know, he can be searched by Justice of Prophecy, but I still would have rather seen Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning Forbidden. Maybe that should have happened and this should have been semi'd. Still, it's not that bad a move.
  • Inzektor Hornet Limited - I would have rather seen it Forbidden, but I guess this will do.
  • Inzektor Dragonfly Limited - Without Forbidding Hornet, hitting this was the best move to make to stop Inzektors.
  • Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon Limited - Stopping the Hieratic OTK and weakening the loop with Lightpulsar Dragon (because an REDMD and Lightpulsar on-field with an REDMD in-grave was annoying as hell to get round), this was definitely a right hit.
  • Evigishki Gustkraken Limited - I had no idea Hieratic Gishki were doing so well, but even so, I would rather have seen Constellar Ptolemys Messier 7 Limited instead, because this will hurt all Gishki decks. Limiting Messier 7 wouldn't have made him any harder to get out, since he lives in the Extra Deck, but now more search power will be needed to Summon this card easily.
  • Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaity Limited - This had to go. Being able to stop the loop without Forbidding anything (and without hitting anything than resides in the main deck) was a great reason to Limit this, and it stops multiple Zenmaitys from Summoning each other to fill the field.
  • Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow Semi-Limited - Blackwings got another trick back. They having been doing anything, so this is fine.
  • Debris Dragon - Just like with Spore, we'll see if Synchro decks can rise up again. As long as they don't completely dominate, this is fine.
  • The Agent of Mystery - Earth Semi-Limited - I never thought this was the right hit to Agents, and I'd much rather have hit Master Hyperion. If Agents start to dominate again, I'd rather see Hyperion hit than this re-Limited.
  • Reasoning Semi-Limited - I always thought Monster Gate would be the card to come off first. Still, decks that use this haven't been doing anything, so this is fine.
  • Mirror Force Semi-Limited - A successful Mirror Force is just as deadly now as it was when this card was Forbidden. The difference now is that between Mystical Space Typhoon, Heavy Storm, Night Beam, Inzektor Hornet, Starlight Road, Stardust Dragon and The Huge Revolution is Over, successful uses of this card are fewer. It's still a solid game-changer, though.
  • Rescue Rabbit Semi-Limited - Rabbit needed hitting, and while I would have hit it harder, this will do, at least for now.
  • Tour Guide From the Underworld Semi-Limited - Again, I'd rather have Limited this to make it all but useless in non-Fiend decks, mainly so that decks can't just spam Wind-Up Zenmaines or Leviair the Sea Dragon. Still, this isn't too bad a hit.
  • A Hero Lives Semi-Limited - HEROes did need hitting, but I personally wouldn't have done it like this. I'd rather have seen Super Polymerization Limited. I know hitting it hurts consistency, but due to its restriction of having no monsters out, and halving your Life Points, I would rather have seen E-Call Limited and this not hit at all.
  • E - Emergency Call Semi-Limited - Hitting this actually does help, since it hits the consistency of a deck that runs 7 monsters. Not too bad a hit.
  • Hieratic Seal of Convocation Semi-Limited - I actually haven't seen Hieratics doing that much this format. This could have easily stayed at 3 and I wouldn't have noticed.
  • Pot of Duality Semi-Limited - Duality gives extra speed to decks that don't Special Summon much, ie the naturally slower decks. Taking one away lowers their chances against faster decks even more.
  • Marshmallon Unlimited - No-one was running it. No danger.
  • Necro Gardna Unlimited - Lightsworns are almost back to their full glory. With Charge of the Light Brigade still Limited though, they aren't doing much, so this is fine.
  • Destiny Draw Unlimited - Ever since they Limited Dark Armed Dragon and Semi-Limited Destiny HERO - Malicious, this has been unnecessary on the list. I'm glad it's finally back.
  • Emergency Teleport Unlimited - Same as with D-Draw. The Forbidding of Future Fusion also prevents people from replacing Malicious with Jinzo and Jinzo - Returner, so there's no reason for this card to stay on the list anymore.
  • Level Limit - Area B Unlimited - Has anyone used this since Xyz Monsters came out? It's fine off the list.
  • Swords of Revealing Light Unlimited - It's still a great stall card, but with so much S/T removal, it was time for this to come off.
  • Magic Cylinder Unlimited - it's great in burn decks, but they aren't doing anything. This in fine where it is.

To summarise:

Agree:

Neutral to:

Disagree:

Cards I wish had been hit harder:

Cards whose impact I am unsure about:

Battlemaniac (talk • contribs) 17:46, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, overall I agree with most of the list and am neutral to the rest. As for Gustkraken...Gishki duelists have an OTK with Evigishki Zealgigas, not that we need it, since usually Zealgigas stays around for a while. But yeah, it is one of the best lists in a while, and the cards hit are spot on. As for Tour Guide, why do you want it hit harder? Limiting it makes it almost useless in any deck, it makes it too hard to draw, and I'd rather not trade 1 card space for a Quick Rank 3 Summon. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 19:03, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

The reasoning behind banning Brionac is clear and simple; Mermails and Atlanteans. Their effects that are triggered by being sent to the graveyard to activate a WATER monster's effect are just too easily abused in conjunction with Brionac. Sure, you can still use Gungnir, but Brionac is just better.
Spore coming back is a big deal. A friend of mine has already gotten a Plant Synchro deck up and running on this list on DN, and it rips me apart when I'm using Dino Rabbit, Chaos Dragons or Wind-Ups. Just way too much hand advantage and recursion.
Hitting Rescue Rabbit any harder would have too much. At one, it would been as unplayable as Dark Ace says Tour Guide would be at one. It would completely kill off the Dino Rabbit deck, rather than just tempering it. And anyway, a lot of players have only run 2 Rabbit anyway, since the 3rd is more than likely a dead draw, unless you've activated Pot of Avarice prior to it. Shamus (talk • contribs) 14:28, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
Usually, you would run 3 Rabbit main deck, and then side out a Rabbit as needed for Games 2 and 3. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 14:38, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Basically what I thought

Looking back at my early post in the predictions topic earlier in the summer, I predicted most of this list. Only things I'm really not happy about are Hieratic Dragon King of Atum staying unlimited, Rescue Rabbit at 2 instead of 1, and Dark Worlds not getting hit. I was hoping for Grapha/Snoww to 1. Djjomon (talk • contribs) 18:59, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the only card that really effects my decks is Brionac, which kinda sucks, but now it gives me a reason to throw Zenmaines into my Extra Deck now.

On the other hand, how are Hieratics supposed to run without 2 REDMDs? That was like the main part of their strategy.

Glad to see Rabbit, Inzektors, and Wind-Ups take a hit, but how come Rabbit was semi-ed and not limited?

I'm surprised to see Seal of Convocation on there, as it seems too soon to ban a actual Hieratic card support card.

Lastly, why is BLS still limited? He should have been gone.

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 19:03, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Hieratic can still function with 1 REDMD, the limited REDMD stops the OTK, but not Hieratic in general. As for Rabbit, the chances of opening with it have dropped, and Tour Guide is semi-limited, if people want to run 2 they can do so with Sangan, but it isn't super splash able, and thus wouldn't really help the deck, unless you really want to run 1 Tour Bus. Also, I like BLS, the card gives a top deck answer to situations where I might lose, and even if I win with that BLS, it was luck drawing into it, not a 100% chance. As for Chaos in general, Chaos Sorcerer is down to 1, so it's not like I have a super high chance of drawing into either of those 2 cards in a situation where I'm the one with less card presence and low LP. Also, last time I check, BLS wasn't searchable. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 19:40, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
Hieratics don't see much play right now, but limiting REDMD will make two things happen 1) Super Dreadnought Cannon Express Gustaph Max won´t be used, so its like banning this card too and 2)It will be even more difficult to see Hieratics in play. I basically agree with Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow Emergency Teleport and Necro Gardna, so we will se again Ligthsworns and Blackwings, 'cause Lighsworns can run more easily BLS and everyone that has BLS just looove it. Limiting A Hero Lives will hit Gladiator Beast too in one of its forms (I know that they have been forgotten, but it was a good combo). The Inzektos and Wind-Ups will have to come out with better ideas, and for Dino-Rabbit it still useable only slower (Gold Sarcophagus and Tour Bus From the Underworld). Madolches and Gear-Gadgets will be hited before we see all of their potential. But here is when the game starts to begin more interesting...Jaggo 80 (talk • contribs) 20:22, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Double mirror force, 3 copys of necro gardna, and kalut back up to 2, this a dream come true. too back bad REDMD was limited that hurts dragon decks but it had that coming to the card. I was hoping umlimited or unsemi-limited cards for infernity decks. --108.225.20.64 (talk) 21:12, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I've played Geargia, and never had I once wanted to add in an Offering to it, I think Geargia are great the way they are, plus they work great with Machina Fortress. We probably will see some more Lightsworn and Blackwings, and HERO decks are still playable and still have 4 search cards, they'll survive, as for Lightsworns, they will make appearances, and they will be a problem for a bit (But not rampant), but without 3 Charge, they don't have super consistent access to the monsters they need. Same story for Blackwings, they only got 1 Kault back, and there main search card is still limited. But we really need to wait until YCS Toronto to see what happens. Also, Infernity Launcher is limited, and it helps stop them from having a consistent OTK, they're fine the way the are. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 21:20, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
  • I said before that many duelists will use Starlight Road. Two Mirror Force, two Torrential Tributes, Dark Hole, and Heavy Storm. But I would like to hear some thoughts on any new Destiny Builds. Maybe Absolute Zero will rise a bit, with better searchers for Deep Sea Diva and Destiny Draw at 3. Hopefully there's a decently splashable HERO monster TCG exclusive coming up. Fingers crossed.

|DED (Leaving Me Messages Are Often Left Here) 22:14, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I doubt that Konami will make more HERO support cards, and all the premiere and Exclusive cards for REDU are known I think. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 22:21, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I really like this list. The thought of being able to finally run 3 Destiny Draws in D - HERO decks is sweet, sweet honey to me; the Wind-Up hand loop is finally gone, as are the Hieratic shenanigans involving Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon and the constant spamming by Inzektors; Tsukuyomi is back, meaning that Spirits are as complete as I can hope (seeing as how Yata-san is never returning); and Debris Dragon to 2 helps Synchro decks as well as Ojamas. I'll be glad once September hits and this takes effect. PHASE (talk • contribs) 22:47, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I was really hoping for them to ban Heavy Storm or MST so I would have a reason to put Night Beam in my deck. I got pulled one last week, but it is pointless to use when HS and MST are better cards.

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 17:00, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

  • It'll only be sweet honey if they make ONE more decent Destiny HERO monster. Just one. Konami knows making one decent Destiny HERO monster could possibly make them explode in the format. They'd have to be really careful, if anything.

|DED (Leaving Me Messages Are Often Left Here) 17:07, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Plus, unless I'm reading wrong, the TCG Exclusives for Return of the Duelist should be announced shortly, which contains Elemental HERO support. Not to mention Crystal Beast support and Neos support.

|DED (Leaving Me Messages Are Often Left Here) 17:17, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Your HERO support comes in the form of Miracle Contact, nothing else. HEROes don't really need more support, especially since Excalibur is coming soon which will boost HERO beat quite a bit. 2.126.180.53 (talk) 17:59, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

My Thoughts

I'm probably the only one here who actually DOESN'T like this list. > >" I've been using dragons since I was really young, when the game first came out actually. And now to see most of the GOOD variants unable to be used in the face of this format is really disheartening. I guess I'll just be sitting out on duels till March... (Hoping they at least change the Ban List an gimmie Future back. If anything, my Metals)

I guess now it's time to wait till I can at least play a Photon Deck when Duelist Pack Kite comes out. All that abuse with Galaxy-Eyes and burn damage + heavy summoning artillery + revival capability.--66.91.199.222 (talk) 05:57, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

  • Obviosuly meta users don't like the banlist. Is it surprising they hit the top decks? If Destiny HEROs became tier 1, I would accept the fact that it would be 99% guaranteed that they would be hit the upcoming format. No need to whine about it.

|DED (Leaving Me Messages Are Often Left Here) 20:48, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I don't feel sorry for Future Fusion, I do kinda feel sad for Metal, but hey the thing was easy to summon, had 2800 ATK, and could summon almost any other Dragon, the only reason it was never hit, was because Dragons were never really a threat in the past, now they are a threat and it's not like they totally took away Metal, isn't 1 Metal better than 0? ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 00:36, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
So you are not going to play the game just because the limited some of the most broken dragon cards? That seems kind of babyish and lazy. When they limit or ban something you use, you just find something to replace it. Samurai users had to do it when Gateway and Shi-En were moved to 1. I have to remove Brionac from my deck, so I replaced him with Zenmaines. My Nordic Deck became useless earlier this year, so if I wanted to keep playing, I had to move on to something else, so I chose Samurais and it turned out they are a dominating force (not the Big 4, but still). Any game you play you need to adapt. You can't just stick with one set of cards and then quit when they remove a card from that deck.

Dr Kain (talk • contribs) 15:03, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Kain is right, although Nordic are still playable and haven't been hit by the F&L list. ---Dark Ace SP (Talk) 17:05, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

You all have good points. But I don't see the point. I put effort into a deck and grow personal attachment and I have to go and play a new deck just because that's what's "in" and waste my money? All because they rendered my deck useless through the banlist? That seems even more stupid in an economic sense. Sorry, I don't play that game. If they want me to try a new deck, they're gonna have to give me a more sensible reason then "if you don't do it we'll eventually make your deck unusable via banlist". That's why a lot of my friends switched to Magic. They thought the whole economic set up of Yugioh was plain stupid. It's my favorite deck that they've taken, but I have others. For example, I like my Cyber Dragons, Nordics and Photons. It didn't take a ban list to make me play them, they simply made their style of play interesting. But if you don't get to use your favorite cards, what's the point in it really?

And NO 1 metal does NOT work in any form of disaster dragon deck. I dare any of you to prove me wrong on that, I highly doubt you'll find a way to make a good disaster deck without at least 2 metals. I'm sorry I have the sensibility to NOT buy more cards just because the ban list likes to be a pain in the arse. I stick to what I like, and that's what I duel with. Now when DP Kite comes out I may have a reason to actually buy something fun and play again. Until then, I'm dropping this game for awhile. I don't know how old you guys are, but seriously, you're gonna buy all new cards, make a whole new deck and invest time and money JUST because of the banlist? Seriously? I've never done that before. Won't start now. Meanwhile, I DON'T buy and replace, or invest time into making a new deck. I save time and money. Plain and simple. Just thought I'd make my opinion known and go against the norm. It's also sad to watch the older players bully the younger players over the ban list. You shouldn't go running around telling a poor nine year old kid that something's banned so they can't play until they change it. (Someone I know did this to a young kid at our local playing ground and made the poor twerp cry) It just looks pathetic that someone would give that much of a rip over a piece of paper. If that's you, I apologize in advance for most likely offending you. And just food for thought: If they printed just to make it unusable at some point later in time, why print it all and for us, why buy it at all? Answer me that and I'll admit I'm wrong. Until I get a reasonable answer, I stand by my opinion. --66.91.199.222 (talk) 06:49, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Gadjiltron's Opinions

Okay, starting from the strongest (both positive and negative) feelings on the banlist...

  • Inzektor Hornet and Inzektor Dragonfly - YES, thank you. The Hornet loop has been a nightmare since there's no clear way of crippling it. Hitting Dragonfly also forces them to use up their Normal Summons in the loop.
  • Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon - While I've only seen one instance of a Hieratic Deck using Inferno Reckless to bring out three of them, that one instance was enough for brickshitting.
  • Tsukuyomi - Really? It's more or less a reusable Book of Moon that can kill things. Okay, granted, it can't strangle Ignition effects like the Book, but flipping things down is a very convenient way of cancelling monster effects.
  • Evigishki Gustkrake - No, really, I don't get it. I understand this is a reusable, watered-down Trap Dustshoot. What I don't understand is what kind of tournament-worthy Deck can consistently top while sporting this.
  • Wind-Up Zenmaity - Aw, bummer. And here, as a Hunterless player, I was thinking Forbidding Hunter would be a good way to cripple the loop. At least my Extra Deck now has a couple of free slots now...
  • Ultimate Offering - Tch, they caught on to Gadget Xyz too. Guess I'll swap a Call of the Haunted back in now.
  • Mirror Force - Should I start searching for extra copies, or stick to one per Deck? ...I guess I'll remain with what I have.

Other entries on the list are met with an "eh." response. At least until my relevant friends take note and adjust accordingly. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 02:33, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

About Evgishki Gustkrake, there has been a small loop regarding this and Hieratic monsters using Constellar Ptolemys Messier 7 for recycle and destroy the hand, much like the Wind-Up Loop so Gustkrake got hit. ----SharkTenjo 02:42, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
The loop was even more powerful than wind us because it destroyed the whole hand and it left you with 2 big beaters. And fo some reason, people fail to understand the power of level 8 hieratics. I play them with 2 Level 8s 2 Level 6s and only 1 Redmd. It is capable of fieldclearing moves easily and can OTK with different moves.--LaserGhost (talk • contribs) 06:55, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I honestly believe there should be a topic about what the meta next format is going to look like, before it actually happens. What tier will Chaos Dragons go down to now? What tier will Blackwings go up to now? Junk decks? Agents? Tele-Zombie? Stall? |DED (Leaving Me Messages Are Often Left Here) 20:57, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

My thoughts

Pretty good list IMO

Banned:

Limited:

  • Inzektor Dragonfly - Finally hitting the Inzektor loop, this should hurt Zekts considerably.
  • Inzektor Hornet - See Dragonfly.
  • Chaos Sorcerer - Not sure why, it's certainly overpowered to be unlimited, but not many were using it... preemptive limit because of Spellbook of Life?
  • Spore - I guess they decided they hit Plant Synchro too hard, and I agree. Shouldn't be an issue with Glow-Up gone.
  • Tsukuyomi - Interesting... I wonder if anybody will use it. Its most broken combos shouldn't be a problem anymore with no TER or Magician of Faith, but Mask of Darkness + Drop Off? I guess that one's a little slow though.
  • Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon - About time Chaos Dragons got hurt, and hits Hieratic OTK too.
  • Evigishki Gustkrake - I don't know the exact mechanics of the loop with this, I just heard that it exists, but I agree because I hate hand loops.
  • Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaity - Good, Wind-Ups will have a harder time hand looping now and won't spam so many Xyz.
  • Ultimate Offering - Agree, Madolche and Gadgets can OTK too easily with this.

Semi-Limited:

Unlimited:

108.196.206.15 (talk) 02:12, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

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