Talk:Condition

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Condition Types

Should we rename the current page to 'Condition' since that is an official term (per Card Rulings:Debris Dragon). And only have conditions that CANNOT be negated by Skill Drain on the 'Condition' page.
And then recreate 'Condition Effect', and have it as the ones under the list for "Those who CAN be negated by "Skill Drain""? (since, it's still 'unofficial', but it at least makes sense since it has properties of 'effects' and can be negated.
-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 05:16, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

Considering CardTable2 and other places where Effect types are listed, the word "Effect" is omitted, the two would be be indistinguishable. What if we just listed all the different types of condition on this page and said which ones can and can't be negated by "Skill Drain"? Like how its done on that forum. You've also said there that they're called "Rule Effects" in the OCG. Would that be a better name for the page, since it is official? -- Deltaneos (talk) 14:05, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the OCG term, "Rule Effects" is official, but both ATEM and Deus use the term. "Rule Effects" seem to include both the ones that can be negated and the ones that cannot be negated.

For a TCG term, there are many other rulings which state that they are 'Conditions' (and while they're at it, a few of them state that they are not effects), including Card Rulings:Ronintoadin, Card Rulings:Infernity Mirage.

Unlike effects, Conditions (both types) can apply in the Hand, Graveyard and RFP zone as well (where necessary); and a few even apply in the Deck.

Although I can't find direct proof for this, but I think the official TCG term for conditions that can be negated are still called 'Condition'. So, like you said, listing them all on the same page, then distinguishing them on the page should be the best way to go. Though, I think we should ask for ATEMVEGETA's opinion as well. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:06, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, if I'm translating the Japanese rulings correctly, the term "Rule Effect" [ルール効果] in OCG is what the TCG players call "Condition". This includes both the Conditions that can be negated by Skill Drain, ect, and those who cannot. But I don't think it is official. It doesn't seem to appear in any of the OCG Rulings. Neither the term "Effect without clarification" [分類のない効果] seems to appear in any of the Rulings. So it looks like the OCG officially doesn't have a specific general term for "Conditions". It mentions each them with different terms, like "Summoning Condition", "this is not an effect of an effect monster", ect.

By the way, since a page for "Conditions" has been created, I agree too to have only one page as "Conditions Effects" and mention there that there are some Conditions that can be negated by Skill Drain and there are some that cannot.

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 09:28, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

Categorization of "Victory Conditions" Condition Effect

I'm not sure that it's in the proper category of "conditions that can be negated". There's no way Exodia can be negated since there is no card that prevents its effect from getting applied once all the pieces are collected. The effect of placing a Venom Counter on a Vennominaga can be negated, but the condition itself of winning the Duel itself cannot be negated once all the Counters are collected. That's my opinion anyway.PoirotH (talk • contribs) 15:06, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what I thought, except ATEM mentioned why, and I couldn't prove it to be otherwise so we kept it like that. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:31, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

So, I notice that "Victory Conditions" has been moved to cannot be negated. What's the reason for that? --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 17:38, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

nvm, found it. --> Summoned Skull 2: Electric Boogaloo 17:45, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Gemini

Card Rulings:Gemini Monsters - In the OCG, "Majestic Star Dragon" cannot negate the effect of a Gemini Monster being treated as a Normal Monster. It can in the TCG. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:52, June 27, 2011 (UTC)

Judgment of the Pharaoh

Testing in WC 2011 suggests that Exodia's win condition is not negatable by Judgment of the Pharaoh. This means that win conditions should probably not be listed under negatable.--Cardguy (talk • contribs) 15:29, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

If you're going by WC11, Judgment of the Pharaoh doesn't negate Phantom Beast Cross-Wing. So unless you can justify that Phantom Beast Cross-Wing is a Condition and not a Continuous Effect, then Judgment of the Pharaoh only negates Continuous Effects on the field. So testing with that card to see if Exodia is a Continuous Effect or Condition doesn't work.

Horakhti vs. Skill Drain would answer it, but for some reason, Konami still hasn't answered such an obvious question.

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 12:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Judgment of the Pharaoh seems to affect only Continuous Effects that apply on the field, like Hoshiningen, not those in the Graveyard like Phantom Beast Cross-Wing, thus not those in the hand as well. So it can't be used to test Exodia. We have to wait for Horakhti/Skill Drain Ruling to confirm this. ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 15:09, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

I see. Well, if it's worth anything, ness00 thinks that Win Conditions aren't negatable:http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=24065754&postcount=4

I'm not sure where he gets this from, but he seems confident about this, and I would guess that it should be ruled this way until a ruling says otherwise.--Cardguy (talk • contribs) 21:17, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

For your information, Card Guy, Pojo's always wrong unless they give a source of proof. I stop trusted Pojo months ago because of their silly messages on CotD - really, 1700 ATK beatdown is better than 1900/2000 ATK beatdown? --FredCat 21:20, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

I've seen their posts before and they're quite accurate, but in the case of Win Conditions, they're just using assuming that it can't be negated and do no have official proof.

Currently, here, we are making it the same as Match Winners. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:19, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

TAFKAP

Where are conditions that can't be negated ever referred to as TAFKAP (The artist formerly known as Prince?) effects? I've seen Deus Ex Machina suggest it as a name, but I haven't seen anyone else use it unless referring to this page. I'm not sure if "Null Effect" is widely used either. -- Deltaneos (talk) 13:19, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, "Rule Effect" (ルール効果) is the only one I've actually seen being used elsewhere as well. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:46, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Quillbolt Hedgehog's banishing condition negatable?

Plaguespreader Zombie's condition to banish itself is not negatable according to the Japanese wiki. It follows that Quillbolt Hedgehog should be the same way. Based on the fact that Deus Ex Machina seems to trust the Japanese Wiki (I've seen him use it as a source many times), I'd say that it is a reliable source, so I think that the classification of Quillbolt Hedgehog's effect should probably be changed to fall under "Conditions that cannot be negated". --Cardguy (talk • contribs) 03:57, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

It's true in the TCG as well. There are TCG rulings for it.

Substitute Effects should have been "Destruction Substitute Effects" (i.e. Union monsters) but those have been added to Continuous Effects, so Substitute Effects should just be moved up. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:12, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's best not to lump Destiny HERO - Departed together with Quillbolt Hedgehog. For one, Pot of Benevolence rulings suggest that conditions like the one it has are negatable. In addition, tesing in WC 2011 suggests that Destiny HERO - Departed's condition to banish itself can be negated by Dark Ruler Ha Des (though not by Skill Drain because it is applied in limbo). --Cardguy (talk • contribs) 11:31, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the problem is that those aren't "Substitute Effects". They're actually "Continuous-like Lingering Effects".

"Substitute Effects" are ... instead

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 14:13, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Gaap the Divine Soldier

Gaap the Divine Soldier's Ignition Effect should leave behind a Continuous Effect which can be negated, just like Fabled Raven. It's listed under conditions that cannot be negated for some reason.--Cardguy (talk • contribs) 19:06, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

I have a theory that goes like this:

Internal (i.e. this card) until the End Phase effects that modify its own Level or ATK/DEF (e.g. Copy Plant, Card Trooper, Dimensional Alchemist, Elemental HERO Terra Firma, Fabled Raven, Gaap the Divine Soldier, Mist Valley Shaman, Prometheus, King of the Shadows) can be negated after they have resolved, in that case, they return to their previous values.

External until the End Phase effects (e.g. Armored Bee, Honest, Sea Koala) cannot be negated after they have resolved.

If no one can find a contradiction, it's probably better to list them separately on the list. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:07, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Morphtronics

The list says that the "While in ___ Position" effects of Morphtronics cannot be negated. A simple look at Morphtronic Cameran's UDE rulings, or UDE rulings for most of the Morphtronics in general, shows that they can be negated. Also, the Japanese wiki agrees with UDE.--Cardguy (talk • contribs) 19:34, October 2, 2012 (UTC)