Forum:"Perfect" Deck

My friends and I were talking the other day, and we think that we may have found a deck that can't lose. I'm not going to brag about it, since I know that we're probably wrong, or else everyone would be using this deck.

So, I figured we should expand this. Rather than it just being between my friends and I, I have decided to take it to a rather large YGO community, you guys. Do you think you can find a way to beat this deck?

The decklist can be found here. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 19:01, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

For those wanting to test the deck without thinking about what to do, here's a step-by-step procedure. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 05:31, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

Thunder King Rai-Oh would do wellTrak0don (talk • contribs) 19:10, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • No, because this deck does add cards by drawing. It just draws outside of the Draw Phase. Thunder King Rai-Oh would only stop Thunder Dragon, Elemental Hero Stratos and Toon Table of Contents. Granted, you have shut down 17.5% of the deck, but because this deck keeps drawing cards, 17.5% isn't as significant as it would be in a normal deck, since you have more options to choose from than you would normally.

Naturia Beast would also have a field day... 'esp since scraps can summon it turn one,

Light and Darkness Dragon, Mind Crush, Prohibition, Dark World or any other deck that causes you to discard, Heralds, Droll & Lock Bird.... would you like me to continue?

-Resk (talk • contribs) 19:47, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Regarding Naturia Beast, we recognized this deck's over-reliance on spells, and so it would fall quickly to cards like Naturia Beast, Horus LV8, and Spell Canceller. However, those cards take several turns to summon, and considering that we get at least 10 draws a turn, you don't have enough time to summon it. Do you really think you can realistically get out EARTH cards that add up to level 5, one of which is a Tuner, that fast?

Scraps can, easily. -Resk (talk • contribs) 20:49, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Um, how exactly would they do that? --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Light and Darkness Dragon weakens itself with every negation. Eventually, it will have 0 atk, and you just summon something and attack. Done.

"**Light and Darkness Dragon weakens itself with every negation. Eventually, it will have 0 atk, and you just summon something and attack. Done."

By which point you have no hand., and with a decent dragon build, it can be resummoned next turn,-Resk (talk • contribs) 20:49, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Actually he has to lower Atk AND Def, so he can only negate 4 cards. Just a heads up.--Helix-king (talk • contribs) 20:53, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Helix-king. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Mind Crush is good only if you call an Exodia piece. Anything else is usually activated as soon as it is drawn, so you don't hold much else in your hand on your opponent's turn. Considering the fact that this deck runs no Exodia searchers, they won't know that you have Exodia, and even if they did, Pot of Avarice is in this deck for a reason. Even if all 5 cards are in the graveyard, you can recover all of them if necessary.

I accept that.-Resk (talk • contribs) 20:49, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Prohibition was mentioned when we were conceiving the deck idea. We were unsure how to get around it until someone pulled up the rulings page on their phone. We were amazed but relieved. Prohibition won't work against Exodia the Forbidden One.

I call -Draw Spell- -Resk (talk • contribs) 20:49, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Well, we would play them as soon as we draw them, so Prohibition wouldn't have a chance to go off. Plus, if we can't use one of our draw spells, we can use another. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Dark World decks cause YOU to discard, not your opponent. It doesn't affect Exodia in the slightest.

Ever heard of Card Destruction?-Resk (talk • contribs) 20:49, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Exodia is a win condition, not effect.--Helix-king (talk • contribs) 20:53, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

I think Resk meant that he could discard our Exodia. To which, I say that we had a Pot of Avarice added just in case someone managed to grave our Exodia. Pretty much the only way you can stop Exodia is by negating its effect, but since it is a win condition and not an effect, you can't even do that. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Heralds are a decent weakness. I'll be sure to try and find a way around this if I can. Although, you would need to keep discarding Fairies in order to keep using it. Unless you are running a massive draw engine like this deck is, you would run out eventually. Still, if we can't use our draw cards, we would run out of them too, so it is a valid point. Nice job.

Perfect Herald decks -always- have good card advatange, and there is always the Tethys, Goddess of Light version.-Resk (talk • contribs) 20:49, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

I already conceded this. You don't have to keep arguing for it. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Droll & Lock Bird only works once. It doesn't stop the deck, it only delays it. We could just do this mass draw during our next turn. Yes, you do get one free turn, but unless you can effectively pull off an OTK, the deck still works.

Give more chance to set up the cards to cause you to lose enough card advantage for the combo to fail, none of your cards are +1's, they are 1 for 1 at most, while Hand Destruction & Dark World Dealings are a -1.

-Resk (talk • contribs) 20:49, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Not really. You gain one free turn. That's it. How are you going to stop a massive draw engine in one turn? Unless you use Protector of the Sanctuary. In which case, see below. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Regardless, you did find a weakness, and we will try to fix it if we can. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 20:39, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

If your gonna play banned, why not go all the way with pot of greed and graceful charity?--Helix-king (talk • contribs) 20:37, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • What are you talking about? Which card(s) in there are banned? --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 20:39, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

only 2 malicious and 1 destiny draw. and for good reason.--Helix-king (talk • contribs) 20:44, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Wow. How did we miss that? I guess we figured that they wouldn't be, since no one uses D-Heroes. Okay. That's a MAJOR FLAW. We'll have to fix that ASAP. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Protector of the Sanctuary and Deck Lockdown--絶望 (talk • contribs) 20:46, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• • Well, no one really runs either of those. And Deck Lockdown is temporary regardless. And there is one downside to that system. The main attacker in this deck is Elemental Hero Stratos, since anything else has either too low ATK or requires tributes, and therefore can't be used. Since Protector of the Sanctuary is only 1100 ATK, Stratos can beat him. He wouldn't be in Defense Mode, since that would involve setting him, and we wouldn't flip him over by attacking, since this deck doesn't use attacks. Although, the odds of a Stratos being drawn when we can't use our massive draw engine are low, so this is a valid weakness. Good job. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

To Resk: You can always edit the middle of the page, so you don't have to keep adding to the page and increasing its length rapidly. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Destiny Draw is limited. You can only use one, not three. Sorry.

As for the effectiveness of such a deck? Trust me, these decks are actually surprisingly inconsistent. It's not perfect - no deck is. Runer5h (talk • contribs) 21:00, December 15, 2010 (UTC)Runer5h

Yeah. Helix-king told me that it breaks the banlist. We're gonna fix it when we next meet, but that likely won't be until halfway through January, given that it's Christmas break for us, and we're dealing with college apps. And I know that this deck isn't perfect, but we're not trying to complete the perfect deck, we are trying to complete the "perfect" deck. Note the quotation marks. I know that no deck is perfect. We're just trying to get as close to perfect as we can. Of course, I said that I wanted you guys to help find weaknesses, but if you want to help make the deck better, that helps us too.--GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 21:18, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Not a Counter, but a Response

-Assuming you go first:

• If, on your first turn or so, you draw (or draw into) any combination of Blue-Eyes Toon Dragon, "Destiny Draw," Broww, Huntsman of Dark World, "Reckless Greed," "Pot of Avarice" and any non-winning combination of Exodia pieces, your opponent may kill you before you can draw anything useful (assuming you don't use "Reckless Greed" or "Hand Destruction" in a panic and draw the last pieces of Exodia).

Okay, let's imagine this scenario. My opening hand contains those 5 cards, and on my draw phase, I draw a "Forbidden One" card. So, what do I do? I set my Reckless Greed card and end my turn. During my next draw phase, I get a draw. And then I use Reckless Greed to get two more. Now, I have just drawn 3 times. I could end up with 3 more "Forbidden One" cards, in which case, I am stuck, and am forced to skip my next two draw phases. During the end phase, since I now hold 7 cards, I discard Broww and get a draw. Hopefully something good will come up. Let's assume that I get a dead draw, like Thunder Dragon. While I could thin out my deck, it wouldn't help since I would have to skip my draw phases anyway. I would then discard monsters at my end phase (as well as use Thunder Dragon's effect), and I would start setting them. Even the "Forbidden One" cards. Then once I have 5 in the graveyard, I use Pot of Avarice, and pray that my luck is better. That's a last resort tactic. The odds of this actually happening, though, are fairly low, since most cards in this deck will let you draw more. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 22:58, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• Broww only activates when discard by a card effect, not when discarded by game mechanics.-Resk

Oh. Still, it has low odds of actually happening. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 01:11, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

• If your opponent can get you to discard an Exodia piece and "Pot of Avarice," you will lose.

Yeah. That happened to me once when I tried making this deck in the video games. Words could not express my frustration. Although this is a weak spot, there is very little we can do to cover it up. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 22:58, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• If your bottom card is a piece of Exodia and all draw-power cards you have left draw two cards, your opponent will get an extra turn.

OBJECTION! I would use my draw two cards. Because Exodia is a win condition, it interrupts everything and wins the game. Even if it didn't, I would deck out and get Exodia simultaneously, resulting in a draw (I think), which is still not a defeat. Besides, I could just use Pot of Avarice to return 5 cards to the deck, and then I have 6 left. Draw 2 thanks to pot, and I have 4. Use two more "draw two" cards. Done. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 22:58, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• You lose at the point of drawing, Exodia cannot win during the resolution of an effect. (See rulings on Graceful Charity)-Resk

-Assuming you go second:

• If your opponent activates any sort of Spell negation when you activate "Pot of Avarice," you have zero options.

First of all, when given the choice with this deck, always go first to allow the opponent as little time as possible. Assuming the opponent wins the cointoss/diceroll/RockPaperScissors and chooses for you to go first, I will entertain your scenarios. Pot of Avarice isn't that necessary to the deck. It's just there as a last resort. I don't need it. If they had a spell negation card, chances are that they would use it on my draw cards. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 22:58, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• If your opponent gets Naturia Bamboo Shoot out immediately (via "One for One") or before you can go through half your Deck, you'll be stuck.

Yeah. But, that card is tricky to summon. You need to get out a Naturia card, then summon the Bambooshoot. That takes two turns, and the opponent will rarely get that many. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 22:58, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• Not really, One for One, Hand Destruction, would get it out first turn, using Pineapple, and they could always just summon Naturia Rosewhip.-Resk

Hmm... Maybe Naturias are this deck's greatest weakness. I'll definitely bring this up at our next meeting. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 01:11, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

• Protector of the Sanctuary...Maybe.

See above. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 22:58, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

• Any FTK can beat you. O'course, it works the other way around, too.

Any FTK can beat anyone. That's a poor argument. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 22:58, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

None of these are concrete counters, but any outlined scenario can cost you victory.

Designless Square (talk • contribs) 21:20, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Tele-DAD is the closest to perfect, but this is a commendable effort to.--Helix-king (talk • contribs) 21:21, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

I found the Frog FTK, or even the Yata-Garasu Lockdown to be closer, but regardless, all 3 are banned now anyway :p-Resk (talk • contribs) 21:22, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

You've never faced an Empty Jar deck have you? Jon Kovacs (talk • contribs) 23:29, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

I must admit that I haven't heard of the concept before, but it sounds no better than a Mill Deck, in which case, we have Pot of Avarice. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 01:11, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Nah, Empty Jar is a first turn mill, so you'd either deck out, or have lost at least your PoA/exod parts,-Resk (talk • contribs) 01:44, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Not really. It sounds like Empty Jar can't do anything unless they draw Book of Moon and Book of Taiyou. Even with 3 copies of each, it only makes up 15% of the deck (assuming the deck is 40 cards). The odds of drawing BOTH are fairly average, not necessarily an overly huge amount. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 02:33, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Not really, they use all the draw power as well, in addition to A/D Changer, which is like Book of Taiyou from the grave, and each flip of jar gives a new hand to recycle-Resk (talk • contribs) 12:20, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

There's also triple Hand Destruction, a Card Destruction, and sometimes Morphing Jar 2, which will throw away your Avarices. In addition, some will include cards like Necrovalley or Dimensional Fissure to keep your monsters out of reach. Jon Kovacs (talk • contribs) 00:38, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

From my limited knowledge of this Empty Jar thing, I think that it simply allows for the use of Mill Flip Effects (Morphing Jar, Needle Worm, etc.) over and over again through the use of Book of Moon and Book of Taiyou. Now, I ask you, what are the odds of an opening hand containing both of these cards? Decent, but not over-the-top. And if you can't get these books, you can't easily Empty Jar. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 02:19, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

You are completely ignoring Desert Sunlight and Acid Trap Hole, which would activate at least one of the milling effects. Also, you are overlooking the Hand Destructions, Card Destruction, and other milling cards. Empty Jar is NOT reliant on the books if it is done the proper way. Also, there is a nifty little thing called a "Morphing Jar OTK" deck. Not unlike an Exodia deck in terms of "reloading" cards that let you get the cards you need from your deck, but far less forgiving to your opponent. Jon Kovacs (talk • contribs) 02:37, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

I concede. --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 05:31, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

Thunder King Rai-Oh combined with Protector of the Sanctuary would crush you. No deck is completely unbeatable unless you break all of the rules of the game and use a 5 card Exodia deck, in which case you'd win (or at least draw) before turn 1. Your deck isn't perfect, but it is very good. Well done from me. Battlemaniac (talk • contribs) 17:07, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

I know that this deck isn't perfect, because no deck is perfect. However, we were not trying to make a perfect deck, we were trying to make a "perfect" deck, with the quotation marks. Perfection was never our goal, just to get as close as possible. The only way to truly get a perfect deck is to use Exodia, and then NOTHING except spells to draw, so you just keep drawing. That's kinda how this thing started. But due to the fact that most draw cards require support (Destiny Draw needs a D-Hero, Trade-In needs a LV8, etc.), it is impossible to do so, considering the 40-card limit. The banning of Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity also hinder the concept, although these cards should STAY BANNED according to most duelists. (Personally, I think PoG should be unbanned, and only Graceful Charity should be banned, but it really makes no difference.) Getting back on topic though, I never said that this deck was perfect. Only that it was "perfect." --GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs) 02:19, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

Empty Jar

Like so.

Jon Kovacs (talk • contribs) 02:55, December 17, 2010 (UTC)