Forum:Most Unsporting Usage of Dark Smog

G'day. A question outside of mechanical rulings: Say my opponent controls "Dark Smog" and has 1 card in his hand. I use MST on Smog. He chains with Smog's effect, and then chains "The Forces of Darkness", returning 2 "Dark World" monsters from his Graveyard to his hand. For Smog, he discards 1 of the monsters he returned with Forces.

I begin to suspect that he did not have a card to discard when he activated Smog's effect. Am I allowed to check his hand to verify this?

Designless Square (talk • contribs) 03:01, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

When he flip Dark Smog, he has no card to discard, so he cannot apply its effect at that time.--Lê (talk • contribs) 03:12, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

He had 1 card in his hand to begin with. I did not know what it was; it might have been a "Dark World" monster, or it might not. Can I check his hand to verify that he did in fact have one? Designless Square (talk • contribs) 03:15, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I believe the card requires him to show the card he's discarding when he activates it, which means that you cannot check his hand but the card should have been shows on activation when it was targeted, to prove that the card could be targeted. --2.100.7.162 (talk) 17:48, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

You have a situation like the following:

Start Chain

• Player 1 activates MST targeting a face-down card
• Player 2 activates that target
• Player 2 activates "The Forces of Darkness"

Resolve

• Player 2 gets two "Dark World" monsters from their Graveyard to their hand.
• Player 2's "Dark Smog" is now active (face-up)
• Player 1's MST destroys "Dark Smog"

This is how it would happen. A player can activate the effect of "Dark Smog"when activating the card or they can just activate the card. Because they cannot fully fill the card's effect, (discard a fiend-type monster, due to them not having one in their hand), they CANNOT activate that effect but that does not prevent them from activating the card. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 18:47, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

This person had 1 card in his hand. I do not know if it was a Fiend. But he activated Smog anyways.

Can't you chain the effect of a Continuous Trap Card to its activation? That's what was happening. Designless Square (talk • contribs) 01:45, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Continuous Trap Cards are unique in that they can be activated without their effects being activated. As such, the conditions to use the effects of a Continuous Trap Card do not need to be correct (unless noted on the card or in its rulings) to activate (flip it face-up) that card. Consider the Trap Card "Ultimate Offering". I do have the ability to activate the card at any time after 1 turn has passed since I set it. It can be activated during the Draw Phase, Standby Phase, Main Phase 1, Battle Phase (except the Damage Calculation area), Main Phase 2, or End Phase. This can be during my turn or the opponent's turn. IF I activate it during the opponent's Battle Phase or my Main Phase, I can chose to use its effect at the same time I flip it face-up. If I do not, then I do not pay 500 LP or Summon a monster. After that activation, I can use that card's effect regardless if I used its effect when I activated the card. If I did not have 500 LP to pay when I activated the card, I cannot activate the effect of "Ultimate Offering". If I activate the card but not the effect and later gain more than 500 LP, I can use the effect because the conditions for activation, that I have a monster to Normal Summon and that I have at least 501 LPs, is correct. If the opponent does not have a Fiend-Type monster in their hand, They CANNOT activate the effect of "Dark Smog". They can still activate the card. If they attempt to activate the card's effect and they do not already have a Fiend-Type Monster in their hand, then they are cheating. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 04:49, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Activating Dark Smog's effect requires you to discard. Its a cost. However, activating the CARD ITSELF isn't. So he can actviate the card without discarding, and use the effect afterward by discarding. At least thats how I read the card. TSM117 (talk • contribs) 10:07, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

emmmm.... Discarding a fiend type monster isn't Dark Smog's cost.It wouldn't trigger Dark World monsters' effects if it were.The way I see it is that selecting a card in the grave is the cost,like scrap dragon selecting 2 cards on the field at activation(not a cost but you get the point). Actually i think what your opponent did was plausible.He activates Dark Smog and selects a monster in the grave. If he didn't had a fiend to discard at resolution then Dark Smog would resolve without effect.If he did have one by whatever means while resolving Dark Smog he would discard it and banish the selected monster.I could be wrong and will gladly accept it if proven but this seems pretty logical to me.

46.190.51.119 (talk) 21:14, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

46, that's an interesting suggestion, but probably not the case. This would be like banishing monsters for "Skull Lair" while there are no face-up monsters.

LordGeovanni, I think you are correct, but my question is not answered yet.

The question is not

"Can my opponent activate Smog's effect without a Fiend in his hand?"

The question is

"If I suspect that my opponent activated the effect of 'Dark Smog' illegally, can I check his hand to verify?"

Designless Square (talk • contribs) 04:40, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

In this case, "Dark Smog" does not have a 'Cost' per say but a 'requirement to activate the effect'. The requirement is that you have the following be true: 1. that you have not already used this effect of this card during this turn, 2. that there is an acceptable target in your opponent's graveyard (a monster), and 3. that you have an appropriate card in your hand (Fiend monster). This card does target which requires it to be selected at the activation of the effect. This doesn't answer the Original Posters question, which they mentioned just above. In that case, the player, the topic creator in this case, would have the right to ask for the other player to show the fiend monster in the opponent's hand that was not used. The opponent would also have the right to refuse. A mediating situation would occur where the two would have to settle on a judge or impartial spectator checking the single card and verifying that the card is an acceptable card. If the opponent refuses to let a judge or spectator to see the card, then that player would be a person I would not play against again.

Specifically: ask the opponent to reveal the correct card that they had in their hand prior to the resolution. If they show you the other monster added to their hand by "The Forces of Darkness", you can request that they show a second copy of that card because you are aware that they added a copy to their hand through the effect of "The Forces of Darkness". If they refuse to show the second copy, or they refuse to show any card, you can request a third-party to confirm. If they refuse to allow a third-party to confirm, then I suggest for you to refuse to continue the duel until they show it to a third-party. If the duel is ended by this, I recommend for you to refuse to duel them in the future for unsportsmanlike conduct.

For a response to 46.190.51.119, A player cannot activate the effect of a card if they cannot preform the full actions required by the card. In this case, a player MUST have a Fiend-type monster in their hand to activate the effect of "Dark Smog". If by some way the card is removed from the opponent's hand prior to the resolution of that card but after the activation, such as "Card Destruction", the controler of "Dark Smog" must still do everything. If they are unable to complete the requirements, such as if the "Card Destruction" removed their Fiend-type monster and they didn't draw another, they must prove it to the opponent such as by showing their hand to the opponent and the effect resolves without action. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 23:24, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

And I may have to remind y'all that first poster said Say my opponent controls "Dark Smog", which meaning that by time the poster is playing "Mystical Space Typhoon" - "Dark Smog" is already face-up, not set when he is chaining MST to it flip activation. Therefore I am sure the opponent can discard a card or not depend on your point of view. And forgive me for being "butt-in", it's a side-effect from Dinoguy I had suffering. --FredCat 23:31, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

I originally interpret "controls" as "has ___ card on their field". If "controls" refers to "has ___ card face-up on their field", then I apologize. FredCat100 is most likely correct in this case. --LordGeovanni- (Talk To Me) *Kupo* 23:58, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I usually seen that line up above as if it was already face-up - that's because it was already "revealing" the name; that proved as face-up. But I respect your thought, Geovanni. It happened to many users, not just you, with that word defined. --FredCat 00:18, December 13, 2011 (UTC)