Forum:Undersupported Archetypes

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List of Undersupported Archetypes (TCG)

(Somewhat) Adequately Supported Archetypes (the archetype must not have been hit by the Banned/Limited/Semi-Limited Lists) (TCG)

Discussion

Hello there, everyone (or whoever is reading this). This forum's purpose is simple: add to the list (above) of archetypes that aren't regional tournament worthy (currently, I think, the regional tournament worthy decks are Infernity, Blackwings, X-Sabers, Quickdraw Dandywarrior, Frog Monarchs, Frog Synchro and Gadgets). If you feel inclined, discuss the archetypes would need (or whether or not there are more regional tournament worthy decks). If you want a cheat sheet of archetypes, look here: Archetype. Zeroblizzard 00:48, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Ancient Gears, Ojamas, Ice Barriers, and Spell Counters can be removed from that list. Geartown and Gadjiltron Dragon are unbelievably good, Ojamas recently recieved some support to make them NOT awful, and just look at the list of Ice Barrier monsters and support. Spell Counters also aren't bad..

As for what to add to that list.. IRON CHAINS.--Akiza Izayoi 00:52, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm still editing it, but FYI, it's there now. Zeroblizzard 00:59, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

What about Flamvells? Fallensilence 00:55, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

It's up there now. Flamvell Firedog beatsticks things, Flamvell Magician attacks for 1400 directly and during main phase 2, it's synchro for stardust/thought ruler archfiend. Plus, Rekindling usually/basically equals at least one (50% of the time, two) synchro(s). Firedog also works with Nitro Synchron, so you can also go for Goyo Guardian, Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier or Iron Chain Dragon. Zeroblizzard 01:02, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Wait is this for OCG or TCG? Fallensilence 01:04, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

TCG, sorry for the confusion. Zeroblizzard 01:07, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

No problem. Shouldn't the Genex archetypes be in there too since they hadn't hit the banned list too.Fallensilence 01:09, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

A deck full of them and their support cards is not tournament worthy. Zeroblizzard 01:15, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

What do you guys think of Koa'ki Meiru? Are they regularly doing well at Regionals? Zeroblizzard 01:17, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Oh yeah. I bet Inverz and Karakuri would be on that list in a few months. Fallensilence 01:16, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Basically. Zeroblizzard 01:17, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Basically awesome. Fallensilence 01:18, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Huh? I thought they were going to be bad? I honestly don't know (I need TCG cards I order to see how they go together).Zeroblizzard 01:23, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Wait don't forget the frogs. Fallensilence 01:23, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

If you saw my first post, they're quite good in tournaments right now. Zeroblizzard 01:24, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Also, the Poker monsters aren't on either list because they have a boss monster and they're basically three cards. I don't see much more support that could be logically added. Zeroblizzard 01:26, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

I just went through all of the archetypes on the Archetype page and have added what I think should be added. Feel feel to discuss. Zeroblizzard 01:29, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Wait the Genex Ally haven't been out to TCG yet have they? Fallensilence 01:35, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

No, they have not; you're right. Fixed. I've noticed a few trends in my definition of "properly supported" archetypes: they all have searchers, boss monsters and some kind of unique engine. Considering that the archetypes are unique and different, there's definitely potential for engines to be created. Zeroblizzard 02:56, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard
For instance, Arcana Force continuous spell cards or searchable support monsters could gain effects or change other Arcana Force monsters' effects based on the number of coin flips flipped during a turn. Zeroblizzard 02:59, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Nice. Fallensilence 17:10, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, for starters: Some of these listed aren't even archetypes. The definition of an archetype is "A group of cards with one or more defining properties". Therefore, Dinosaurs and Penguins shouldn't be on here. Secondly, a lot of these listed archetypes are quite good. Aliens have INSANE field control through Cosmic Fortress Gol'gar, and Geartown and Gadjiltron Dragon speak for themselves, even appearing in Meta decks. Crystal Beasts may not be up to par with Infernity decks, but they still aren't undersupported. Crystal Abundance, anyone? Plus, their Field Spell has 5 different effects! Genex have a HUGE list of support, and Gravekeeper's? Are you kidding me? Just look at all the new support they recieved in The Shining Darkness, through Stele, Descendant, ect. Ice Barriers also have a massive list of members and support, much like Genex. Ojamas recieved a good deal of support in Raging Battle, and have OTK potential. Piece Golems shoudl be considered a "mini-archetype", and therefore doesn't need excessive support. Reptiliannes can be absolutely devastating if played right, and Skull Servants can also make a viable deck with OTK potential. Spell Counters aren't an archetype, but they recieved a bunch of support with the Structure Deck 16. Oh, and Spirits and Toons aren't even archetypes.

As for your list of "(Somewhat) Adequately supported archetypes, you say that the archetype must not be hit by the Forbidden or Limited list in order to make it. I don't see how you can consider putting Dark Counterparts on the list if you're specifically excluding the card that's on the Limited list. That's like saying that Elemental Heroes should be there because of Stratos, and Gladiator Beasts should stay due to Bestiari. Anyway, there's my rant. Just because the deck isn't Meta, doesn't mean it's undersupported.--Akiza Izayoi 21:05, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, Akiza'sRose (remember to sign next time), you've got a point. However, the undersupported decks never see play in regional tournaments, meaning that their support is not truly competitive. I originally wanted decks to see play in regional decks (enough so that the "random" decks would be numerous enough in the deck tallies to warrant an exact name of the "random" deck in question) without being called "Meta"; I now see that "Meta" is basically a popular deck that wins because of its cards: by my definition, "well-supported". Basically, I want every single archetype that I've listed as "undersupported" to get cards that support the archetype and make it playable at regional tournaments (of course, this requires someone to actually play the deck at tournaments, but that will happen if good enough cards are released). Case in point: Superancient Deepsea King Coelacanth was practically useless without tuners and synchros. Once those cards came out, there was potential in that deck and players played it. With the release of Genex Undine, Genex Controller and Nimble Sunfish, Jason Grabher-Meyer showed a somewhat competitive deck here: http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=2468. Long story short: if an archetype isn't competitive at tournament level, in the minds of most players (including me), it's not worth playing. Zeroblizzard 20:56, June 21, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Holy hell, I think that's the first time I've ever forgotten to sign... Anyway, a few of what's listed up are are actually competitive at regional level. Ever heard of Empty Jar? Also, Crystal Beasts had a short shine in the light when they were released. Ojamas, Aliens, and Reptiliannes also contain some regional level material. The only downside is, that Infernity and X-Sabers are on a level far, far above regionals, so everyone plays them at regionals to get higher.

The other thing is, you really should take down some of these at aren't archetypes at all. An archetype is defined as having at least 1 support card, where Dinosaurs, Penguins, Cyber Girls, Piece Golems, Goblins, and Chemicals don't have a technical support card that says "Activate only if you control a ___ Monster", "Select one ____ Monster you control"...--Akiza Izayoi 21:05, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Empty Jar isn't competitive right now. Crystal Beasts, Ojamas, Aliens and Reptiliannes all have the same story. The next format needs to kill Infernities, Frogs and X-Sabers badly (not the synchros, just the swarming monsters). Dinosaurs do have some good support: Tyranno Infinity is almost okay in Removal decks and Fossil Dig is a standard search card (it just doesn't have any good targets). Penguins and Cyber Girls you're right about. Piece Golems have themselves, so that's their support. Goblins are beatsticking monsters, so they have Final Attack Orders and Skill Drain along with Goblin King and Hate Buster. Chemicals are only two monsters, so you're right in that they don't have support, but they could have more. There are a heck of a lot of elements (how about Uranigeddon or Sulfugeddon or Ausaurus) and they can have a lot more spell and trap support (searching for elements? "Elemental Discovery"? "Prehistoric Heavy Water"? "(delta symbol)Nature/Time (change in nature over time)"? that could be interesting/good for them. Zeroblizzard 00:01, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

That would be great ressurecting chemicals and dinosaurs but that's a rare chance it can happen. Fallensilence 00:41, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

But still, there will ALWAYS be a meta deck, no matter how many Archetypes you end up supporting. Ojamas, Reptiliannes, and Crystal Beasts are certainly not undersupported. Otherwise, we could list every single archetype that isn't Frog, Infernity, X-Saber, and Blackwing and call it a day. Some TRULY unsupported archetypes are the ones that it's impossible to make a deck around. Such as...

The majority of the ones I removed aren't truly an archetype. As I stated previously, an Archetype must consist of one actual support card for the group, such as Poison Chain for Iron Chains, Phantom Beast Rock-Lizard for Phantom Beasts, or Arsenal Summoner for Guardians. Cards like Fossil Dig don't support an archetype, they just support a single type. Chemicals aren't an archetype either, because there isn't a card that says "blah blah blah When you control a Chemical Monster, blah blah".--Akiza Izayoi 01:36, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Akiza, if you've noticed, I practically did mention every archetype that wasn't Frogs, Infernity, Blackwings or Quickdraw Dandywarrior. I'm removing Dinosaurs and adding Plants, but Chemicals are an archetype because of Bonding - H2O (or Carboneddon in the anime). Furthermore, according to your definition of "support", Phantom Beast Rock-Lizard isn't a support card of the Phantom Beast archetype; it's just a member (its effects do nothing to other Phantom Beasts). Finally, my point is that because of the lack of support for the archetypes listed as undersupported, the archetypes are unplayable at a regional tournament level (it doesn't have to be world championship or finals or whatever, just regionals). Zeroblizzard 02:32, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard
EDIT: As for your list, I don't care whether or not people decide that certain archetypes are good enough for that person to make a deck out of them; what I care about is whether or not the deck wins at regionals. You're right about your list; none of those cards can be used to make a regionals tournament winning deck. Zeroblizzard 02:35, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Dark Worlds and Crystal Beasts actually have made it to regionals before in the past, and since no further support has been released for them since then, that would make them "well-supported". Ancient Gears can also do well in the form of Geartown and Gadjiltron Dragon.

As for what makes an archetype...

Above are the only actual archetypes on that list. The rest have no true support card(s) bonding them together. Chemicals don't fit into this category for this reason. They are a group of cards used together to Summon a bigger monster, but that doesn't mean they are an archetype. Great Dezard and Fushioh Richie don't make an archetype, do they? If they had a card like....

  • Creation of Matter
  • Normal Spell
  • Lore - Special Summon one "Geddon" monster from your Graveyard, and take damage equal to its ATK points. That monster cannot attack this turn.

THAT would make them an archetype. Phantom Beast Rock-Lizard is a support card for the Phantom Beasts because he can be Tribute Summoned with one Tribute when using a Phantom Beast monster. Since they can acess him more easily than other decks, he supports them.--Akiza Izayoi 03:07, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

The creators should make some more phantom beast support cards. It would be interesting to see Gladiator Beasts deck against a Phantom Beasts deck. Fallensilence 04:41, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Akiza'sRose, I suggest that you change the Archetype page then, because that's where I got these archetypes. In addition, spirit monsters have support from Spirit Burner, Orb of Yasaka and Mirror of Yata. Toon monsters have Toon Table of Contents. If those cards don't count as support, then neither does Phantom Beast Rock-Lizard (because having a tribute summoning condition does not confer any additional effects or add or summon other monsters). Fallensilence, the creators should do more thoughtful "creating" instead of this make'em and drop'em archetype "support" mentality. Zeroblizzard 14:55, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Ancient Gears are not unsupported. Look at Geartown and tell me that they need more support. 83.250.74.194 15:02, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

OMG. They're not regional tournament good. They need something like Earthbound Linewalker for Ancient Gear Golem and some kind of swarming. Zeroblizzard 15:07, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

A card that can summon a monster with 3000 attack from your graveyard, deck or hand IS good. We can say like this: Every AG deck that is not based on Geartown sucks, but a deck based on GT is good. 83.250.74.194 15:47, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the guy. There's no way monsters with 3000 atk or lower is good unless it has good defense, swarm, or a nice effect. Fallensilence 18:05, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Fallensilence, you have a unique talent to confuse me (who's the guy?). As for 83.250.74.194 (sign in or create an account, PLZ!), it's not. 3000 ATK regularly suicides with Infernity Doom Dragon, Hundred-Eyes Dragon, White Night Dragon, Blue-Eyes White Dragon and Red Dragon Archfiend (notice how they're all dragons?!??!?!). Furthermore, Trample was never that big of a deal, but the negation of spells and traps during the battle phase was really good. However, as Fallensilence just said, a good regional tournament worthy deck needs a solid defense (always a monster in defense position or an attack lock), swarming (nothing can beat Infernity) or nice effects (which usually helps the two things before it, or in the case of Ancient Gears, were either the Gadgets or the spells and trap negation stuff). Zeroblizzard 19:01, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

I think the Wurm archetypes are missing in the list though. Fallensilence 20:05, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Link to the appropriate page, please. Zeroblizzard 20:23, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Zeroblizzard

Sorry my bad. Fallensilence 22:51, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

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